The Banning System

[Nagi]

Hello,

I'm going to be pretty relatively brief about this.

When a user is banned, show them a forum where they can appeal.
Letting them see "You are banned! Reason: {}" is pretty stupid and useless.

It is much better giving them the chance to appeal and/or see something useful.
I'm suggesting a forums that only the banned members can see and a place to let them appeal.

Stop taking a week to wait for responses to a decent well-detailed scam report.
Ban the user for inactivity if they're looking at a thread and can't defend it (a day's duration max).
It doesn't take a week to ban a user when I've provided well known proof of a user's legitimacy.

With the system above, using this method would easily solve a good portion of your bans as well as have no harmful effects.

If a user is falsely banned, they would appeal with sufficient evidence immediately.

Thanks.

 

[Justis]

Allowing banned users to log in, but only access a banned member appeal section?

Sounds decent to me.

Personally, I wish that it were possible for staff's decision on bans to be final; but I know human errors do happen, and in the effort to ensure there is "absolutely no reason to ever go off-site" as Bebo has stated we're aiming for. There should be a method of appealing an unfair ban on site, should such an event occur.

Just my humorous side kicking in.....
I'd find it funny if there were a banned members chat/General Discussion area, for banned users to rage at each other in.
Like a detention or a prison cell.
All those grey name tags...
And the temp banned users being like, "Whatchoo in for? Yeah, I broke some rules... Gettin' out of this joint in 3 more days tho. Gunna miss you.".

Hahaha. xD

 

[Nagi]

I also wish that they would make a "View Alts" tab in the account profile page and disable privacy.
This is a market, who needs privacy? We need exposure.
This also help me out whenever I have to deal with newly registered members.
This way, I don't need to ask rocket or Errota or what not to help me with alt checks :s

 

[Justis]

This is a market, who needs privacy? We need exposure.
This also help me out whenever I have to deal with newly registered members.

I agree with your privacy comment.

I would prefer users not be able to lock other users out of seeing their profile at all.

I've made a post here: http://www.mc-market.org/threads/55109/ explaining why.
But in summery...
Users need to be held responsible for all the other posts they've made.
Especially since it's the closest thing to a real reputation system we have.
It's what I use to determined the quality of a member.

Been saying it all along.

A view alts tab might be troublesome to implement though...
And I know there have been some cases where alts have intentionally been hidden from normal members for good reasons.
I know not of any decent way to automate this, so staff would likely have to do this manually.
I'm not sure that's really the best option...
But let's see what they think about it.

 

[Overlord]

When a user is banned, show them a forum where they can appeal.
Letting them see "You are banned! Reason: {}" is pretty stupid and useless.

Bans should be discussed internally. "Appeals" for bans shouldn't be a thing. The forum has your email, if they want to give a second chance they'll contact you.

Showing a public list of banned users is also stupid.

 

[Jack]

Showing a public list of banned users is also stupid.

Yet every time it has been removed, everyone complains.

 

[Nagi]

Bans should be discussed internally. "Appeals" for bans shouldn't be a thing. The forum has your email, if they want to give a second chance they'll contact you.

Showing a public list of banned users is also stupid.

They don't use their email. I've contacted their email multiple times when I got falsely banned before. No-one responded within the 2 weeks.

 

[MisfitNerd]

I really like this idea. This could help clear out scam reports much quicker, allowing scammers less time to continue their dirty work. I know multiple people who have been scammed by the same person, while the 1st person is still waiting for their scam report to even be looked at.

Another great idea, more moderation. I remember hearing someone say "Over-moderation" before, bullshit. Honestly there isn't a big problem with having lots of staff, it just means all threads will be watched after better, Shoutbox will be better managed, and users who scam or attempt to evade bans get properly punished quicker. We need the applications opened up for more staff, both scam reporters and moderators.

 

[nara~kavi]

I really like this idea. This could help clear out scam reports much quicker, allowing scammers less time to continue their dirty work. I know multiple people who have been scammed by the same person, while the 1st person is still waiting for their scam report to even be looked at.

Another great idea, more moderation. I remember hearing someone say "Over-moderation" before, bullshit. Honestly there isn't a big problem with having lots of staff, it just means all threads will be watched after better, Shoutbox will be better managed, and users who scam or attempt to evade bans get properly punished quicker. We need the applications opened up for more staff, both scam reporters and moderators.

I disagree. I think maintaining a low staff:user ratio is better because it reduces the chances of staff abuse and misconduct. I believe that rather than hiring more staff, current staff should be trained to become higher quality.

Especially if staff are being paid.

Regardless, I've seen the speed at which reports are responded to sped up immensely since BeBosny and Rocket took over, so I don't really think it's a problem anymore. They've just hired two Scam Resolvers so things should pick up over there as well.

Bans should be discussed internally. "Appeals" for bans shouldn't be a thing. The forum has your email, if they want to give a second chance they'll contact you.

Showing a public list of banned users is also stupid.

I agree with the first part. What's your reasoning for the banned users list not being public? I find it helpful to know who has been banned from the site and what they were banned for so I know not to associate with those people and not to deal with those users if they contact me off-site. I also agree with the notion of publicly "shaming" those who have done wrong.

 

[MisfitNerd]

I disagree. I think maintaining a low staff:user ratio is better because it reduces the chances of staff abuse and misconduct. I believe that rather than hiring more staff, current staff should be trained to become higher quality.

Especially if staff are being paid.

Regardless, I've seen the speed at which reports are responded to sped up immensely since BeBosny and Rocket took over, so I don't really think it's a problem anymore. They've just hired two Scam Resolvers so things should pick up over there as well.



I agree with the first part. What's your reasoning for the banned users list not being public? I find it helpful to know who has been banned from the site and what they were banned for so I know not to associate with those people and not to deal with those users if they contact me off-site. I also agree with the notion of publicly "shaming" those who have done wrong.

You do have a point. And I didn't mean like "let's hire 50 scam reporters and 100 moderators", but like a good 5-10 couldn't hurt. As long as you do your research, manage your staff well by closely watching them, and teach them the proper skills they need to perform their duties, you should be fine.

I admit I'm still fairly new here (November 2015), so I don't know much of the MCM history, so I don't know if there have been lots of abusive staff members. So I'll be fair in that. I could be wrong completely.

 

[Nagi]

I disagree. I think maintaining a low staff:user ratio is better because it reduces the chances of staff abuse and misconduct. I believe that rather than hiring more staff, current staff should be trained to become higher quality.

Especially if staff are being paid.

Regardless, I've seen the speed at which reports are responded to sped up immensely since BeBosny and Rocket took over, so I don't really think it's a problem anymore. They've just hired two Scam Resolvers so things should pick up over there as well.



I agree with the first part. What's your reasoning for the banned users list not being public? I find it helpful to know who has been banned from the site and what they were banned for so I know not to associate with those people and not to deal with those users if they contact me off-site. I also agree with the notion of publicly "shaming" those who have done wrong.

You might be misunderstanding the point.
If both parties are responding to a scam report thread in an orderly fashion, that's fine.
While it is true that scam reports have been responded to, there are a few that remain unresponsive (parties don't respond, even if the staff team does). I meant in no way that the current staffs aren't doing their jobs.
The point that I was trying to make was that it took about 1 week for a scam report to be closed when the scammer was clearly aware of his actions and the proof I provided.
What I want to see happen is that if a scam report remains inactive for a day or two that the scammer in question would be banned immediately.
If they pledge innocent or what not, they can do so in their appeal that they can submit WHILE they are banned.
And it's not just related to scam reports, if a person gets falsely banned (like I did while my friend logged into the same wifi as me), I wouldn't have to wait out the entire 2 weeks but instead have a way of contacting someone and letting them know of the error.

 

[nara~kavi]

You might be misunderstanding the point.
If both parties are responding to a scam report thread in an orderly fashion, that's fine.
While it is true that scam reports have been responded to, there are a few that remain unresponsive (parties don't respond, even if the staff team does). I meant in no way that the current staffs aren't doing their jobs.
The point that I was trying to make was that it took about 1 week for a scam report to be closed when the scammer was clearly aware of his actions and the proof I provided.
What I want to see happen is that if a scam report remains inactive for a day or two that the scammer in question would be banned immediately.
If they pledge innocent or what not, they can do so in their appeal that they can submit WHILE they are banned.
And it's not just related to scam reports, if a person gets falsely banned (like I did while my friend logged into the same wifi as me), I wouldn't have to wait out the entire 2 weeks but instead have a way of contacting someone and letting them know of the error.

I just feel like this would be more expenditure of staff resources on something that isn't really important. I think the majority of bans on this site are justified - though I have been the victim of a few mishaps. Pretty much every banned member would try to make an appeal once they were banned and this would result in staff having to look through like a hundred appeals each week - not to mention the initial surge of previously banned members they'd get coming back trying to get back into the site.

Staff would have to spend time investigating and looking into each individual appeal and then spend the time responding to the person appealing, and there'd be a lot of wiggle room there for corrupt members of staff (let's not pretend like this isn't a huge issue on this website) to unban people they like or people who bribed them.

If there ever was something like this, I would like for it to be entirely transparent to the entire forum so that everybody can see what's going on and how and why people who are banned for serious offenses are unbanned from the site.

Otherwise, all it will cause is more drama and people yelling "corruption" and "favoritism" all over the place when someone gets unbanned for something that someone else remained banned for.

 

[Nagi]

I just feel like this would be more expenditure of staff resources on something that isn't really important. I think the majority of bans on this site are justified - though I have been the victim of a few mishaps. Pretty much every banned member would try to make an appeal once they were banned and this would result in staff having to look through like a hundred appeals each week - not to mention the initial surge of previously banned members they'd get coming back trying to get back into the site.

Staff would have to spend time investigating and looking into each individual appeal and then spend the time responding to the person appealing, and there'd be a lot of wiggle room there for corrupt members of staff (let's not pretend like this isn't a huge issue on this website) to unban people they like or people who bribed them.

If there ever was something like this, I would like for it to be entirely transparent to the entire forum so that everybody can see what's going on and how and why people who are banned for serious offenses are unbanned from the site.

Otherwise, all it will cause is more drama and people yelling "corruption" and "favoritism" all over the place when someone gets unbanned for something that someone else remained banned for.

In the past, I've ran a Gaming Clan on my own for online games (Battlefield Heroes, Battlefield P4F, etc).
I've also moderated other sites that uphold this method.

What you're saying is a dramatic understatement to the staff team as well as an overstatement for scammers.

Scammers or rule offenders that know what they've done wrong do not take the initiative to get their account back.
People who scam or break rules will never use this method directly as they know darn well that it'll waste their own time.
In addition, staffs can simply limit the amount of appeals you're allowed to make per month to a low amount or what not.

This is a mere 30 second process at max.

Appeals are like resumes and cover letters; people skim through them, evaluate the evidence, and make a decision.
The time spent to do this is nothing compared to overhauling a scam report's evidence over and over again.
And yes, I'm speaking through first hand experience.

In addition, bribery shouldn't even be brought up in this scenario.
They can bribe anyone at any time, and it doesn't have to go through here.
I doubt that they'll say "I'll give you $100 if you unban me" on an unban appeal either, wouldn't you say so?
If 'corruption', as you say it, occurs through this method, the staff member that agrees to it publicly must not be very bright...

 

[MisfitNerd]

I just feel like this would be more expenditure of staff resources on something that isn't really important. I think the majority of bans on this site are justified - though I have been the victim of a few mishaps. Pretty much every banned member would try to make an appeal once they were banned and this would result in staff having to look through like a hundred appeals each week - not to mention the initial surge of previously banned members they'd get coming back trying to get back into the site.

Staff would have to spend time investigating and looking into each individual appeal and then spend the time responding to the person appealing, and there'd be a lot of wiggle room there for corrupt members of staff (let's not pretend like this isn't a huge issue on this website) to unban people they like or people who bribed them.

If there ever was something like this, I would like for it to be entirely transparent to the entire forum so that everybody can see what's going on and how and why people who are banned for serious offenses are unbanned from the site.

Otherwise, all it will cause is more drama and people yelling "corruption" and "favoritism" all over the place when someone gets unbanned for something that someone else remained banned for.

To solve the large amount of flooding ban appeals, they could simply make a special ban appeal position, and maybe hire 3-5 or so (Really not many).

Do keep in mind, with a lot of those banned members, who will 100% not be unbanned-like Ew- they can basically just instant deny as soon as they see the names. Most probably wouldn't take all that long. xD

As for allowing members to see Ban Appeals, I agree to that. Us users have the right to know who we're dealing with and the kind of past conflicts they've gotten tangled up in. +1

I do have to say, however, that in many scam reports I've seen, the user did take a week or longer to be banned. I'd see them actively using the forums, flat out ignoring their active report and trying to defend themselves. A lot of the time, this is probably the concern. It's obviously understandable if you're having internet issues or are out of town and what not, but when they're clearly still active and just ignoring the report, they've obviously got something to hide. Perhaps a way to better notify people of active reports on them is to send them an automatic private message that clearly informs them of being reported, including a link to the report. In case you may miss it in your notifications.

It shouldn't have to take a week or longer to answer scam reports. If you've been accused and are perfectly innocent, and just not paying attention, this would be a way to get their attention and make them address the issue. If they got banned, it'd force them to make their appeal and finally deal with the situation.

 

[thebaum64]

I will be watching this because I want to see what you all think of it, I find it really interesting.

 

[MisfitNerd]

I actually just thought of an idea. I'm not sure if this is possible with XenForo, so if it isn't don't make fun of me for it or anything.

So, there are the abilities of different groups, like Member, Premium, Supreme, and then the staff groups, right? What if, when a player is banned, they're not officially banned yet (BARE WITH ME). Rather than ban them, move them to a temporary group which allows them to ONLY post a Ban Appeal, and allow them only 1 chance to appeal their ban. They won't be allowed to use Shoutbox, or any type of discussion group, as well as not allowed to view any threads (If that's possible to do).

If they're truly innocent, they'll do everything they need to get an unban. If they don't care or are guilty, they most likely won't bother appealing. If an appeal is denied, however, then they're officially listed as a banned user.

To ensure no innocent player is truly falsely banned, the appeals which provide an actual argument or counter-evidence of innocence should be judged by maybe more than 1 person, as these temp-banned users would only get 1 chance at their appeal. As I said, if they're truly innocent, they'd argue anything they could, provide any proof they could, or refund/resolve the issue with the original reporter.

As for those who are already permanently banned, there's probably just not much they could do. If you have an idea of how previously banned users could get a chance feel free to suggest something. My idea is not 100% complete. xD

Again, this was just an idea. Please don't criticize me if you don't like it, but rather help me better improve this idea, perhaps.

 

[Justis]

I actually just thought of an idea. I'm not sure if this is possible with XenForo, so if it isn't don't make fun of me for it or anything.

So, there are the abilities of different groups, like Member, Premium, Supreme, and then the staff groups, right? What if, when a player is banned, they're not officially banned yet (BARE WITH ME). Rather than ban them, move them to a temporary group which allows them to ONLY post a Ban Appeal, and allow them only 1 chance to appeal their ban. They won't be allowed to use Shoutbox, or any type of discussion group, as well as not allowed to view any threads (If that's possible to do).

If they're truly innocent, they'll do everything they need to get an unban. If they don't care or are guilty, they most likely won't bother appealing. If an appeal is denied, however, then they're officially listed as a banned user.

To ensure no innocent player is truly falsely banned, the appeals which provide an actual argument or counter-evidence of innocence should be judged by maybe more than 1 person, as these temp-banned users would only get 1 chance at their appeal. As I said, if they're truly innocent, they'd argue anything they could, provide any proof they could, or refund/resolve the issue with the original reporter.

As for those who are already permanently banned, there's probably just not much they could do. If you have an idea of how previously banned users could get a chance feel free to suggest something. My idea is not 100% complete. xD

Again, this was just an idea. Please don't criticize me if you don't like it, but rather help me better improve this idea, perhaps.

My idea was similar, but better in every way.

Banned users can still log into their account, but access to everything is denied, besides banned user specific content.
(Appeals / that forum I really really want )

 

[MisfitNerd]

My idea was similar, but better in every way.

Banned users can still log into their account, but access to everything is denied, besides banned user specific content.
(Appeals / that forum I really really want )

Sorry I didn't even notice that post. xDDDDD

I'm a fail at life. ;-;

But yeah I think regardless it'd be a good idea.

 

[Ivain]

I like this idea, especially the way Super wrote it before his latest post. the current one might still work, tbh.
I've appealed for one other person before, but that was only because I was in contact with them about the thing that initially got them banned before they got banned. I then presented the proof to Rocket, I think? not sure. Anyway, he was unbanned as a result.
If I had not happened to be around and taken an interest, he would probably still be banned or would have been so for a lot longer.
That system would make it relatively easy for staff to deal with unbanning people. If you had a cooldown of a month or two on ban appeals, that'd also work, though there'd need to be a way to deny people further appeals if they just post troll appeals or similar crap.

 

[MisfitNerd]

I like this idea, especially the way Super wrote it before his latest post. the current one might still work, tbh.
I've appealed for one other person before, but that was only because I was in contact with them about the thing that initially got them banned before they got banned. I then presented the proof to Rocket, I think? not sure. Anyway, he was unbanned as a result.
If I had not happened to be around and taken an interest, he would probably still be banned or would have been so for a lot longer.
That system would make it relatively easy for staff to deal with unbanning people. If you had a cooldown of a month or two on ban appeals, that'd also work, though there'd need to be a way to deny people further appeals if they just post troll appeals or similar crap.

Well as I said, only allow them the ability to post 1 appeal. If they truly want the unban, they won't waste it at all. They'll get straight down to business.