Combat freelancing groups

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Something I have noticed recently is a lot of freelancing groups. As a developer, I only post in the plugin development forum, though I imagine this problem exists in other forums as well. There is an overwhelming number of freelancing groups, and they are often pushing out individual freelancers and taking business. The problem with this is that they sign freelancers onto their team, with a set of strict conditions. I had joined several at one point, and all of them were the same:

- You may not DM customers. This is absolute. Freelancers who DM'd customers would be demoted and banned. This is because the freelancing group must get money from the deals you complete.
- A 10-20% commission will be taken for any jobs you complete.
- Code you write for the freelancing group belongs to the group.

These 3 rules are very bad for the freelancers, as they mean that we're losing a significant portion of money for the work that we are doing. It's especially important to note that you can't DM customers ever, even if you have dealt with them in the past. This prevents you from establishing connections with the customer in favor of getting more money from the managers/owners. The groups themselves always have the same bots that do the same things: React to create an order, send messages with the details. It's not a service actively provided by a human, and the staff in charge do virtually nothing to earn the money they gain. They essentially are just taking money from the freelancers who are doing all the work. The one thing that they should be doing - ensuring the skills of developers and the validity of the clients - is something that is already done by MC-Market. There is little to no benefit to customer or freelancer to using a freelancing group; the only benefit is to the people running it, who skim off the top of every deal completed.

The other important thing is that they are given the rights to the code you write for customers under their management. This, again, is very bad for the developer. In my ToS, I specify that, even after selling a plugin, I retain at least partial rights to the code. These freelancing groups would be free to resell your code for money, further making money for your work as a developer, artist, or whatever other commission-based work you may do.

What gets very annoying about these groups is the sheer number of them. Scroll through the plugin development forum and you'll see exactly what I mean; there are no less than SIX distinct freelancing groups on that forum just on the first page. They often go onto every request post and respond with a boilerplate message, which usually looks something like this: "We believe we could help you at Whatever Studios. Please join the discord at https://discord/whatever and make a request in the orders channel." They all have the exact same structure, and all exploit the system in the same way. Their responses are so robotic. I have seen other devs complain about the same issue, so I figured I should make a suggestion to do something about it.

While I would be in support of outright banning them, I don't think that's going to happen. So here are what I consider to be realistic options:
- Limit how often freelancing groups can up their threads, and disallow them from stickying threads. This would allow individual developers to stay at the top rather than being blotted out by these groups.
- Ban them from creating "requesting" threads for recruiting developers (because these are not asking for actual jobs, just more people on their team so they can skim more money). These threads double the number of threads that the freelancing groups have, and further block out not only individual developers, but also genuine threads requesting development.
- Make freelancing groups prove that they are actually helping the developer in some way. Getting commissions doesn't count, since that's what MCM is for, and they are taking business that the developers would have been getting on their own if the groups didn't exist.

The more of these we can enforce, the better, though I don't know how realistic it would be. To be frank, I'm sick and tired of these groups stealing business, taking money from developers for *our* work, and clogging up the forums. So let's do something about it.
 
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AlfieSR

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Service team threads just spam the whole forum sections up with irrelevant shit and make it harder for individual freelancers to make commissions. Not to mentions those teams which copy and paste their messages everywhere in replies.

Another solution could be to make an individual forum for service teams and only allow them to post there but allow them to pay for their thread to be stickied at the top of other forums. As for "looking for freelancers"/recruiting posts from the service teams they should only be allowed in the recruitment forum.
 

Sloth

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This has been suggested quite a few times and each time the idea gets shot down. Why? Because users willingly join these service teams and agree to the terms that are set. Alongside this it’s simply competition. Provide a better product and advertise your business more and you’ll get some customers.
 

AlfieSR

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This has been suggested quite a few times and each time the idea gets shot down. Why? Because users willingly join these service teams and agree to the terms that are set. Alongside this it’s simply competition. Provide a better product and advertise your business more and you’ll get some customers.

Hard for freelancers to compete with teams posting threads everywhere across the market.
 

Kuchy

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The problem with this is that they sign freelancers onto their team, with a set of strict conditions. I had joined several at one point, and all of them were the same:
- You may not DM customers. This is absolute. Freelancers who DM'd customers would be demoted and banned. This is because the freelancing group must get money from the deals you complete.
- A 10-20% commission will be taken for any jobs you complete.
- Code you write for the freelancing group belongs to the group.

These 3 rules are very bad for the freelancers, as they mean that we're losing a significant portion of money for the work that we are doing.
They do this to ensure they get paid. Like the freelancer, the service team would like to get paid as well.


It's not a service actively provided by a human, and the staff in charge do virtually nothing to earn the money they gain. They essentially are just taking money from the freelancers who are doing all the work.
Arguably, these sales representatives do work; they get freelancers clients. You can't get money if they don't bring in clients for jobs. Even in real-world businesses, sales representatives are bringing in clients. The rest of that percentage goes towards the upkeep of the service team. It's just business. Everyone does their part when working for a team.


They often go onto every request post and respond with a boilerplate message, which usually looks something like this: "We believe we could help you at Whatever Studios. Please join the discord at https://discord/whatever and make a request in the orders channel." They all have the exact same structure, and all exploit the system in the same way. Their responses are so robotic. I have seen other devs complain about the same issue, so I figured I should make a suggestion to do something about it.
I would agree with it being robotic; however, they are trying to attract clients. Freelancers do the same thing but they word their messages differently. It's funny because some freelancers not with a service team complains about service teams sending messages like this yet they do it too. You can't get clients if you don't try to catch their attention. Sure they could word their messages better, but we Moderators aren't English teachers... It's not our job to say, "Oh you should say this or this and not this," in their messages. Now, if they say/do something that is against our rules, then they will be warned for it.


Limit how often freelancing groups can up their threads, and disallow them from stickying threads. This would allow individual developers to stay at the top rather than being blotted out by these groups.
Everyone is limited to 24hr bumps. I see no reason to single out a specific group because this other group says "we don't like you." Same reason with sticky threads.


- Ban them from creating "requesting" threads for recruiting developers (because these are not asking for actual jobs, just more people on their team so they can skim more money). These threads double the number of threads that the freelancing groups have, and further block out not only individual developers, but also genuine threads requesting development.
Now, this I agree with; however, it can be put that like other requesting threads they are requesting freelancers of that category. Although if they're requesting people to join their team, I believe it should go to the Recruitment & Staff forum. They are trying to recruit freelancers to their team so it would make sense to go there? Let me know what you think about this.


- Make freelancing groups prove that they are actually helping the developer in some way. Getting commissions doesn't count, since that's what MCM is for, and they are taking business that the developers would have been getting on their own if the groups didn't exist.
So how do you propose we do this? You want the staff team to just watch these service teams like a hawk and every time they get a commission completed the staff member swoops and asks for proof? No. That's a HUGE waste of our time. If the client has feedback they want to leave on the service team, they can do that through the Reputation System whilst also providing valid evidence for their claims.


The more of these we can enforce, the better, though I don't know how realistic it would be. To be frank, I'm sick and tired of these groups stealing business, taking money from developers for *our* work, and clogging up the forums. So let's do something about it.
Again, that's business. There's always going to be someone else taking business from you. You want us to remove them too? Personally, probably; although realistically, it won't happen. You don't like their terms? Don't join it... It's not that hard to say no. It's not like they are blackmailing you to join. They want business just as much as you do.


I've been an individual freelancer for nearly 2 years. Do I personally like service teams? No. Every time I get offered to join I respectfully decline. My reason: I don't like other people managing the money I earn. As I said, that's my reason why I don't like service teams and why I won't join. You don't like the service teams because of what? They are taking business? Then strive to be better than them. That's how you get business...
 

Stormbits

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Hard agree on these, get useless teams out of here that spam the same bloody message everywhere.

Only team I actually endorse is BGHDDevelopment because they have little to no bot interaction and actually hold a good connection between their freelancers. They have been very friendly to me and I see them being friendly to everyone.
 

LouaeIsmail

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They do this to ensure they get paid. Like the freelancer, the service team would like to get paid as well.



Arguably, these sales representatives do work; they get freelancers clients. You can't get money if they don't bring in clients for jobs. Even in real-world businesses, sales representatives are bringing in clients. The rest of that percentage goes towards the upkeep of the service team. It's just business. Everyone does their part when working for a team.



I would agree with it being robotic; however, they are trying to attract clients. Freelancers do the same thing but they word their messages differently. It's funny because some freelancers not with a service team complains about service teams sending messages like this yet they do it too. You can't get clients if you don't try to catch their attention. Sure they could word their messages better, but we Moderators aren't English teachers... It's not our job to say, "Oh you should say this or this and not this," in their messages. Now, if they say/do something that is against our rules, then they will be warned for it.



Everyone is limited to 24hr bumps. I see no reason to single out a specific group because this other group says "we don't like you." Same reason with sticky threads.



Now, this I agree with; however, it can be put that like other requesting threads they are requesting freelancers of that category. Although if they're requesting people to join their team, I believe it should go to the Recruitment & Staff forum. They are trying to recruit freelancers to their team so it would make sense to go there? Let me know what you think about this.



So how do you propose we do this? You want the staff team to just watch these service teams like a hawk and every time they get a commission completed the staff member swoops and asks for proof? No. That's a HUGE waste of our time. If the client has feedback they want to leave on the service team, they can do that through the Reputation System whilst also providing valid evidence for their claims.



Again, that's business. There's always going to be someone else taking business from you. You want us to remove them too? Personally, probably; although realistically, it won't happen. You don't like their terms? Don't join it... It's not that hard to say no. It's not like they are blackmailing you to join. They want business just as much as you do.


I've been an individual freelancer for nearly 2 years. Do I personally like service teams? No. Every time I get offered to join I respectfully decline. My reason: I don't like other people managing the money I earn. As I said, that's my reason why I don't like service teams and why I won't join. You don't like the service teams because of what? They are taking business? Then strive to be better than them. That's how you get business...
Sorry to comment this I literally can't post anywhere it says server error occured
 

Cal

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I'm sick and tired of these groups stealing business
The one thing that they should be doing - ensuring the skills of developers and the validity of the clients - is something that is already done by MC-Market.
They aren't "stealing business" from you, you are being out-competed.
Customers aren't irrational, they do it because one thing is offering a better product. One that has a built in middleman to protect them from scams, better support systems, a strong reputation, and incentives that better align with their own.

taking money from developers for *our* work
They aren't taking your money, you are paying for their service.
The teams offer you advertising, management, charge-back protection, sales services and a streamlined commission process, all at no direct cost to you. You get this all without making a payment because they take a cut.

- You may not DM customers. This is absolute. Freelancers who DM'd customers would be demoted and banned. This is because the freelancing group must get money from the deals you complete.
Yeah that's kind of the whole point shoutout my tiktok ebois
The customer forms a relationship with the team, not you. The customer pays the team, not you. The freelancer is there to do the work for the team. If you want to build your own relationships, pay for your own advertising, manage your own sales, and assume the risks the teams do. The teams put the capital in to get the customers, they get the benefit, I don't think that's unfair, if you do, don't join.

Put simply,
if you don't want to pay the prices for the service these teams offer, pay for it yourself.
 

Mick

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Service teams occurred naturally on MC-Market without any staff intervention. They formed because freelancers and clients like the support and management that they provide.

We're not going to be implementing any new policies specifically restricting service teams. As long as they're following all of our other rules then they're well within their rights to do anything that they're currently doing.

Denied, thanks for the suggestion
 
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