A pronouns field, asked for in earnest.

[Airee]

This is something of a response to the this suggestion being declined. I understand the person who made this thread is a shitlord, but that's not who I am and I'm not making this post to make fun of people.
I know this site wants to become a better platform and that this is something the team at MC-Market genuinely would like to add, but you guys are letting the vocal minority control the direction of the website.

This suggestion is being denied.
1) Because it was created for the above malicious purposes

I really hope that I can be given the benefit of a doubt as to this being created for malicious purposes. I've been here for a very long time, haven't caused much trouble, and consider myself an advocate for and ally of transgendered and nonbinary people.

2) Offering an option like this will only make it easier for those with malicious intent to target those with preferred pronouns and harass them or discriminate against them. The great thing about online business is you can’t see who’s on the other end of the screen. The vast majority of people who are struggling to find acceptance and tolerance prefer to blend in with everyone else as much as possible, not advertise their situation to people who are desperate to degrade them.

Here's an idea to deal with this: pre-populate it from the profile gender field.
Displaying your pronouns isn't advertising a "situation." I'm a cis man and I've put my pronouns in my Twitter bio & forum user title. I just like to let people know how they should call me.
This would allow people to blend in and let people know if they prefer to be called by pronouns that are against people's immediate assumption about them.

3) Having a user-input gender field will be abused by people like Cade who want to mock those with non-binary pronoun preferences. The staff team does not have the time or resources or ability to validate who is being serious, and who’s attempting to use the granted freedom to sabotage the image of everyone else.

I think there's a couple good solutions to this off the top of my head:

• Treat their abuse of systems on MC-Market as abuse and action against it. These people are trolls.
• Offer a pre-determined selection of pronouns. This would mitigate pretty much all abuse and perhaps support can manually set it to something if someone genuinely lays somewhere other than he/him, she/her, they/them. As a gay man with a lot of friends and involvement in LGBTQIA+ spaces and communities, I feel those are fairly inclusive and most non-binary people go for they/them and that the rest won't place a major burden on the support staff.

Alternative to all of this, just add a non-binary (they/them) option to the existing gender options. In my opinion, it's the least you guys could do to support non-binary people and make this a more inclusive platform.

 

[Sullybash12]

I feel like forcing people on the internet, that won't ever meet you again to call you a pronoun is dumb. Maybe if you become friends with them and you want to let them know, but otherwise it's just silly. Put it in your status like you have if you really want that, otherwise personally I don't see a need. There was a reason Cade's was denied.

 

[Airee]

I feel like forcing people on the internet, that won't ever meet you again to call you a pronoun is dumb. Maybe if you become friends with them and you want to let them know, but otherwise it's just silly. Put it in your status like you have if you really want that, otherwise personally I don't see a need. There was a reason Cade's was denied.

All of the reasons of which I addressed one by one.
Pronouns will be used in everyday conversation and having pronouns publicly displayed often saves people the trouble of correcting someone or having an uncomfortable conversation around their gender identity, which is what actually has no place in business communication.

Why would this be required on a forum for Minecraft products though? Literally, no one cares if you're gay or not, everyone is just a user.

Nothing I'm suggesting would be required, and you don't seem to understand any of this. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

 

[Justis]

Justis has some point in why he didn't take Cade's suggestion seriously but his reason that it'll lead people to harass that person: isn't it ultimately up to that person whether or not to add their own pronoun?

If we introduce this, we’ll be inherently encouraging that people put their preferred pronouns in this designated feature. Encouraging something when we know that it will lead to an increased risk of harassment and discrimination, not just on site, but off-site where we are helpless to reach, is something I’m uncomfortable with. Currently, if someone wants to choose to specify their pronouns on their profile, then there’s nothing stopping them from doing that, but at least MCM isn’t encouraging that they do so.

Why would this be required on a forum for Minecraft products though? Literally, no one cares if you're gay or not

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s sexuality. In fact, you’re the only one bringing it up.
This thread is suggesting that MCM provide a dedicated space for people to specify the pronouns they use.
The OP even states that he was assigned male at birth and he uses male pronouns, but that he specifies them on social media just so that people know what to refer to him with. There’s nothing even inherently LGBT about it.

I am however, also aware that many allies of trans people choose to specify their pronouns in their social media because they want to normalize the specification of pronouns. Because when it’s only trans people specifying their pronouns, their specification of it sticks out like a sore thumb, and makes them easy to target and discriminate against. If specifying pronouns was normalized, that in itself at least, wouldn’t be so much of a giveaway.

Alternative to all of this, just add a non-binary (they/them) option to the existing gender options. In my opinion, it's the least you guys could do to support non-binary people and make this a more inclusive platform.

I have an alternative suggestion though, which will very likely lead to much fewer people being intentionally and maliciously targeted, discriminated against, mocked or hurt. Because there is one thing Norska is correct about. "Everyone is just a user".

Let us simply remove the gender field.

We are a marketplace. The only thing anyone needs to know about you in order to conduct themselves in a marketplace is whether or not you’re good at what you do, and that’s all they should be judging you by. I want to avoid a situation where someone sees that you’ve selected "non-binary" as your gender option, and chooses not to deal with you. I want to avoid a situation where someone sees "female" as your gender option, and chooses not to deal with you. Hell, I even want to avoid a situation where someone sees "male" as your gender option, and chooses not to deal with you. Gender should have no basis within our marketplace, just as your race, color, national origin and religion should have no basis within our marketplace.

If someone wants to know, then they can ask you directly and you can judge for yourself at that moment whether you want to tell them or refuse. It’s not that much trouble. If you really really want, you can always put it on your profile via other means. But at least then, MCM hasn’t prompted or encouraged you to do so.

Getting a little more personal with my own opinion here, I don’t believe the concept of gender should exist. It’s old, it’s faulty, and is intended to "conveniently" summarize nothing more than stereotypes and assumptions based on constantly changing cultural classifications, none of which can be reliably applied, especially in today’s world where people are actually free to exist outside of the genderized roles given to them by society.

I hate that we continue to perpetuate the idea that gender is necessary, that you not only need to have one, but that you do have one, and if you don’t know what it is, then you just haven’t identified it yet.
It’s damaging, and leads to dysphoria as people genuinely believe there’s something wrong with them for not being able to apply a label to their understanding of who they are. Even for people who are able to identify as either of the standard "male" or "female", it actually communicates no reliable additional information about you whatsoever. Nothing. Truly and honestly, it is empty information, and yet it causes so much pain and discrimination and ceaseless arguing and even death.

If we can, as a platform at least, stop perpetuating the idea that gender is necessary or important information to convey, at least to the point of having its own dedicated input field on our public profiles, then I believe we’ll be taking a step in the right direction. A step towards equality, and the idea that we’re all just people. That’s what really matters.

 

[Ally]

I feel like forcing people on the internet, that won't ever meet you again to call you a pronoun is dumb. Maybe if you become friends with them and you want to let them know, but otherwise it's just silly. Put it in your status like you have if you really want that, otherwise personally I don't see a need. There was a reason Cade's was denied.

You is a pronoun. They is a pronoun that you probably use unconsciously. And the list goes on.
Using someone's pronouns is simply respectful and it's referring to the appropriate person, there's nothing more to it than that.

It is exactly the same as referring to a teacher or professor by Sir, Miss, Mister, Doctor, whatever.
It is exactly the same as referring to your father as dad, or your mother as mum, or whatever.
It is exactly the same as referring to someone by their freaking name, like your friends or your family. You don't call a person by a name other than the one they give you unless they go by another nickname they're open with people using.

It's. Not. That. Hard.

They are tokens of respect. If you have such a big issue with respecting people, then you're going to have an issue dealing with people in society.

 

[Sullybash12]

You is a pronoun. They is a pronoun that you probably use unconsciously. And the list goes on.
Using someone's pronouns is simply respectful and it's referring to the appropriate person, there's nothing more to it than that.

It is exactly the same as referring to a teacher or professor by Sir, Miss, Mister, Doctor, whatever.
It is exactly the same as referring to your father as dad, or your mother as mum, or whatever.
It is exactly the same as referring to someone by their freaking name, like your friends or your family. You don't call a person by a name other than the one they give you unless they go by another nickname they're open with people using.

It's. Not. That. Hard.

They are tokens of respect. If you have such a big issue with respecting people, then you're going to have an issue dealing with people in society.

Merely explaining why the suggestion shouldn't be implemented and why it will probably be denied.

Goes hand in hand with "everyone is just a user" and the fact that it will probably lead to more discrim, also along with the fact there are ways to present it already.

Also I don't see anyone on this forum calling other people by sir, miss, mister, doctor. Also haven't seen another person give a pronoun for someone to use. Just my thoughts.

 

[Ally]

Merely explaining why the suggestion shouldn't be implemented and why it will probably be denied.

Goes hand in hand with "everyone is just a user" and the fact that it will probably lead to more discrim, also along with the fact there are ways to present it already.

Also I don't see anyone on this forum calling other people by sir, miss, mister, doctor. Also haven't seen another person give a pronoun for someone to use. Just my thoughts.

You saying that it's forcing pronouns on other people is not 'merely explaining', it's degrading. But I'm also not discussing, myself, what'll happen to the suggestion, I'm explaining why your mentality is not one that should be encouraged.

Also, have you heard of 'examples'? Because you just tried to pick apart one of them.

Yeah, and lots people assume pronouns (and as you pointed out below, use they/them which is good). And that's okay, some of the time. But there are people who go out of their way to disrespect another person too.
For the record, people have asked. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[Sullybash12]

Realistically Justis's point of the last thread was very fair. This community has shown it cannot even handle an open discussion on a topic inside a suggestion. Let alone the ability to use something like this. We have already seen the current status system used to troll, mock or otherwise hurt people. I fully believe it would do more harm than good. On the subject of pronouns on here 99.998% of the time, I find myself calling the user by their username to begin, and from my interactions on this site, I believe the majority also do. The times I've personally witnessed them not are those attempts at hurting people. I think Justis's viewpoint above is extremely well worded and I see no downsides to it personally and believe he's made a very strong and reasonable argument for that approach on how to handle it. In a perfect world, this suggestion would work unfortunately were in far from a perfect one.

I think that's what I was trying to say
Rarely/Never do I ever hear someone use anything but a name or they/them to address another user

 

[Ally]

3. unfortunately ally i agree with every single one of your points but i will disagree that this needs to be added for the reasons stated above. there are multiple places for you to have your pronouns as everyone has suggested keep them there and it'll be easy enough.

I never said I agreed with the suggestion.

Neither, however, do I fully agree, or fully disagree, with the points raised by anyone on this thread. It's not a simple issue and it never will be. Sorry to anyone who thinks it is.

 

[Ally]

Anything over two pronouns is stupid

From now on I'll just refer to us as you and I then? Sorry, that's three, pardon me.
That was exactly the thing I said is not respectful, and what is it you reply with? Far out. You didn't even need to get close to making that point, you should have left it.
In fact, you quite literally did not need to inject your opinion there.

The reasoning that other people will be harassed for this is just dumb

You literally have not been on the receiving end of the harassment, especially at the behest of groups of people on MCM. Justis isn't wrong here.
People on this platform are fucking brutal and that is a reality you have to deal with just the same as I do. It is fucking dumb that people do the things they do here. And the staff do the best they can do when they can, but that doesn't mean some people don't slip through the cracks.
This is an example of a suggestion that would exacerbate that.

 

[Justis]

In my personal opinion, being an administrator or leader means acknowledging your community, and attempting to find a middle ground with your community - regardless of however difficult that may be. My point in saying that Justis was wrong is that the problem isn't acknowledged. It's avoided. I do not see a reason why people who want to use custom pronouns should be barred from doing that and not supported by the administrative team.[DOUBLEPOST=1613968158][/DOUBLEPOST]

One choice is to completely reject this suggestion, another is to accept it as it is.
Going with the first choice is to knowingly proceed with an unfairness to those whose gender identity isn’t provided within our current options. Going with the latter is to encourage those who are most vulnerable to use a feature we choose to provide while knowing that it will subject them to increased harassment, discrimination and threats to their security by our community members acting both on and off site.

You accuse me of having not acknowledged the problem or having thought of and offered a middle-ground.
I’m sure I posted a very long message doing all of the above. I don’t expect everyone to respect that, nor do I expect them to understand the problems that I see in the same way that I see them.
But I want you to know that I sleep soundly knowing that I’ve considered absolutely everyone on this platform and have offered the very best solution that I am personally capable of conceiving.