Auto Ban Chargebacks

[Landon]

THE PROBLEM:
Users can chargeback payments to resources, and yet they can still purchase that resource. This adds an unnecessary stress to the Seller, as they have to worry about PayPal chargeback fees if they lose, as well as providing PayPal solid proof the user downloaded. Which is not possible, as you can't see if the user downloaded, you can only see if the user purchased. 90% of the time, you will lose the chargeback.

THE SOLUTION:
Users who chargeback payments on resources should be automatically banned. This way they cannot grab essentially free resources. How can we do this? Selly has a feature where it blacklists chargebacks, so it's gotta be possible using the PayPal API or something.

PROBLEMS & SOLUTIONS:
"The user might have accidentally purchased"
It's a very thorough process when purchasing. Clicking 'Buy Now', logging in, and then confirming the payment. You cannot accidentally do that.

"Just open a Scam Report"
Right now, there's already too long of a wait for M6 to respond to high priority scam reports. No need to add an unnecessary amount of scam reports for him to read.

"The user didn't expect what he purchased"
Justis manually verifies and approves all resources. So off the bat, we know the resource is good enough to be on the MC-Market resource page. Then, there are descriptions, videos, and images of what you are buying. No excuse to 'not know what it was'.

I don't get why people who chargeback should still be allowed to be on MC-Market.
They should be treated the same as Scammers. The implementation of this suggestion would solve a very big issue on MC-Market.

 

[3l0Ofd8QrqJ]

So basically, the idea is that if you dont like something, you immediately charge back before even ATTEMPTING to contact the seller?
I guess you never really get stressed out by having random people charge back. If only there was an option to blacklist certain people from buying.

What I'm saying is that the entire concept of charging back before attempting to even get help is shit. My analogy might have been poor - buying software from, say, adobe, might be a better comparison, but the main concept of someone charging back as soon as they make a mistake is simply shit. It's a good thing MCM does not have sales fees, or else it would cause a loss no matter what.
In the start of november, I had a chargeback for one of my sellfy products. It says in the sellfy order that he reversed payment the minute that he downloaded the map (the map WAS downloaded, so it was not a mistaken purchase). In the chargeback, he claimed it was not as described, but escalated to paypal as soon as I reacted by asking him to show me where it was 'not as described'. That was 2 weeks ago. I have now found another way to contact him, but it's already been escalated into a paypal only claim, and in 2 days time I won't have the option to refund even if I wanted to.

Charging back as first action implies that you believe the creator is attempting to scam you, as opposed to there being an honest mistake or misunderstanding. If I COULD blacklist people from buying my resources, I would immediately blacklist anyone who charges back as first move. It's honestly insulting, implying you have 0 faith in anyone's honesty. I know there's plenty of shady people on this site, but you could at least give a person a chance before assuming the worst.[DOUBLEPOST=1510681990][/DOUBLEPOST]Now that I've read Justis' post, I would also like to amend my agreement. instead of using an automated system, it should be manual. Perhaps auto-submitting a report?

However, I would still very much like to see the culture of charging back as first move to be discourage strongly.

For one people need to understand the difference between a chargeback and a dispute. A chargeback is what happens if the buyer actually wins the dispute or reverses the transaction by contacting the credit/debit card provider.

A dispute is for when, as described by PayPal:

If buyers have a problem with a transaction, they can bring it to the seller's attention by opening a dispute in our Resolution Center. The dispute process is an opportunity to resolve issues before they become escalated to a claim.

So you can't blame anyone who found themselves in a case I described for opening one.

Also your example was quite blatantly a malicious one, you said it yourself, so a bad example when comparing to my argument for lowering the disciplinary level

 

[Ivain]

For one people need to understand the difference between a chargeback and a dispute. A chargeback is what happens if the buyer actually wins the dispute or reverses the transaction by contacting the credit/debit card provider.

A dispute is for when, as described by PayPal:

So you can't blame anyone who found themselves in a case I described for opening one.

Also your example was quite blatantly a malicious one, you said it yourself, so a bad example when comparing to my argument for lowering the disciplinary level

Funny, but I remember already saying that perhaps it should not be an instant ban, but should be a boatload of warning points. I guess that was missed.
After reading Justis' post I agreed an actual auto system ban is wrong, and seeing you say it's difficult for the system to differentiate between refunds and chargebacks, I'll be further amending the suggestion.
Btw, by 'dispute' you mean the stage before its "escalated to paypal review" or whatever, right?
Considering 90% of people that have 'opened disputes' this year went to escalation without even responding to me, it's not surprising I care little for the difference. It's still something I consider a malicious act, it says "I do not trust this person to treat me fairly without a big company and loss of money breathing down their neck".

If you somehow manage to accidentally click through several screens to purchase the wrong resource, as was one of your examples, then it should not be a problem to contact the seller first.
Or perhaps something could be implemented along the lines of "request refund" or something, to directly ping the seller on their paypal email (not their PP account, just the email attached) that someone has requested a refund, without actually doing this through paypal.

The last time someone opened a dispute to paypal and actually listened and cooperated is more than a year ago, and it was just one person. All the rest of those that ended up canceling the chargeback were those I had to actively hound and stalk until I finally got hold of them, because they weren't responding coherently to the paypal conversation.
Paypal's conversation system is very restricted in what it allows, and is quite slow. It's a poor way to quickly resolve a dispute, and should only be done if there is reason to believe that the person will attempt to lie or otherwise not cooperate.

I see a paypal dispute (let's use that term, since the commonly used chargeback is apparently only if you've won already) as the same thing as a scam report. You believe the other party to be uncooperative

Reading through again, the only situations where I believe you are fully correct in saying a paypal dispute should be opened IMMEDIATELY is if there is a proven claim that the resource contains stuff they had no right to sell, or the seller makes a drastic update to the resource and you can no longer use the product after said update.

 

[3l0Ofd8QrqJ]

Funny, but I remember already saying that perhaps it should not be an instant ban, but should be a boatload of warning points. I guess that was missed.

Okay so why even bother arguing with me if you agreed with my suggestion initially lol? Not gonna even bother responding to the rest cus it's irrelevant now.

 

[Ivain]

Okay so why even bother arguing with me if you agreed with my suggestion initially lol? Not gonna even bother responding to the rest cus it's irrelevant now.

I argued because I disagree with your claim that opening a paypal dispute if you buy the wrong resource by mistake is a good initial action.

 

[3l0Ofd8QrqJ]

I argued because I disagree with your claim that opening a paypal dispute if you buy the wrong resource by mistake is a good initial action.

That's. The. Purpose. Of. Disputes.

 

[Turtle]

That's. The. Purpose. Of. Disputes.

disputes can make unverified accounts limited

 

[Landon]

I never used resources but I like the suggestion. I'm just thinking of it from a developer's standpoint. If a guy charges back on a resource. When someone charges back. Do they still have access to download the resource? Because if they do. I'm thinking let's say someone charges back. How is PayPal going to communicate to MCM on the backend and say hey, This guy did a chargeback. Ban him. I don't think the PayPal API will allow checking if a specific email has a chargeback currently active. IDK. Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't used the PayPal API but if we're actually thinking about how this could be done and developed. It doesn't seem like it's possible unless MCM is notified a user did a CB which I doubt.

You can set it up to ban chargebacks. Selly.gg does it, Buycraft does it. It's possible, just gotta get Lyphiard to figure out how to setup the IPN or what not ;p

edit:
After a Google Search, Stackoverflow said this
"Instant Payment Notification (IPN) to handle that sort of thing.

IPN will automatically POST data about all transactions that hit your PayPal account to a URL you specify. This URL (a script) can receive the data and update your database, generate email notifications, or anything else you might want to automate based on the transactions.

You can handle all sorts of things with IPN. For chargebacks specifically, you would receive an IPN with the following params...

• txn_type=new_case
• case_type=chargeback

Of course, you'll get a bunch more parameters, too, but those would be how you can pick out the chargebacks and processing them accordingly."

So, it's possible.

 

[Luigical]

Not only is this an amazing idea. But it is simply an addition to what I have already stated. http://www.mc-market.org/threads/197513/ Adding this to that would not only give us a defense against scammers but have them immediately banned.[DOUBLEPOST=1511213438][/DOUBLEPOST]

I never used resources but I like the suggestion. I'm just thinking of it from a developer's standpoint. If a guy charges back on a resource. When someone charges back. Do they still have access to download the resource? Because if they do. I'm thinking let's say someone charges back. How is PayPal going to communicate to MCM on the backend and say hey, This guy did a chargeback. Ban him. I don't think the PayPal API will allow checking if a specific email has a chargeback currently active. IDK. Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't used the PayPal API but if we're actually thinking about how this could be done and developed. It doesn't seem like it's possible unless MCM is notified a user did a CB which I doubt.

MCM already alerts you saying they were "refunded"

 

[Turtle]

You can set it up to ban chargebacks. Selly.gg does it, Buycraft does it. It's possible, just gotta get Lyphiard to figure out how to setup the IPN or what not ;p

edit:
After a Google Search, Stackoverflow said this
"Instant Payment Notification (IPN) to handle that sort of thing.

IPN will automatically POST data about all transactions that hit your PayPal account to a URL you specify. This URL (a script) can receive the data and update your database, generate email notifications, or anything else you might want to automate based on the transactions.

You can handle all sorts of things with IPN. For chargebacks specifically, you would receive an IPN with the following params...

• txn_type=new_case
• case_type=chargeback

Of course, you'll get a bunch more parameters, too, but those would be how you can pick out the chargebacks and processing them accordingly."

So, it's possible.

yeah but i don't think you can use IPNs when the payment passes through to your personal account

 

[Landon]

yeah but i don't think you can use IPNs when the payment passes through to your personal account

Selly.gg does payments the exact way as MC-Market, and they ban chargebacks.

and to edit onto that. Yes it can, because if it didn't, the Resources addon wouldn't be able to verify if the user paid or just exited the tab.[DOUBLEPOST=1511292873][/DOUBLEPOST]Kennedy thx for being first person to disagree.
demoted

 

[Landon]

bumping this hot suggestion

 

[HexedHero]

I agree 100% on this!

 

[Landon]

can you chargeback with bitcoin?

No

 

[Mick]

Put simply, this is not a reliable system that you've suggested with far too many special cases.
The simplest and easiest solution for everyone is just to proceed with your transactions, and if you've been scammed, file a scam report.

If you want to prevent someone from purchasing/downloading your resource entirely, give them a license and disable it. You can do this via www.mc-market.org/resources/market-place-dashboard/manage-licenses

Denied, thanks for the suggestion.