Change in MC-Market's policy regarding Microsoft (and other) Products.

[Samuel V]

Hi All, this is going to be a long one so grab your popcorn. If you don't like reading just skip to the final paragraph.

Around April 2020, I bought Uber Keys on MC-Market, which at the time was the "go-to" place to get Windows keys on MC-Market. Once I had bought it, I posted my thread on MC-Market with a sticky thread and no issues! I slowly started gaining sales and got to the point where I was making 1-3 sales a day from MC-Market.

Over the months until the end of August, I was regarded as the "go-to" Windows key seller on MC-Market with little competition due to the other threads getting deleted due to the nature of how they obtained the key. Since starting, I've had just over 130 sales and many more privately through PayPal. Not one of them has been negative in any way, I've helped many people get their installation up and working.

Mick responded to a similar suggestion like this in 2016 here. Now, I agree, not all sellers are legit, I'm not saying I'm the only person who tries their best to follow the Microsoft terms in a legal manor. Mick in his post talked about being unable to verify if people are "legitimate". I've talked to many staff, IT experts etc on how I obtain my keys, yet my thread was deleted.

I would like to make this clear, this is not an issue about legality, this is an issue with MC-Market policy. The thread was deleted due to "MC-Market's policy being that Windows and Other Microsoft products are not allowed on MC-Market".

One final point, I'm not saying people who sell cracked, OEM or other illegally-obtaiend keys should be allowed to sell on MC-Market. I'm not trying to make this into a "black hat" forum, I'm just trying to sell my keys in a way that makes it affordable, complies with terms and prevents people of going down the route of messing up their computer with pirated copies of Windows.

In Conclusion I wish for MC-Market's policy regarding the sale of products such as this, that comply with terms and conditions set out by other parties to be allowed on MC-Market.

 

[Samuel V]

REDACTED

b. Stand-alone software. If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

 

[Samuel V]

REDACTED

Sure, I can explain how I obtain these. These are licenses from old devices usually being sold cheap or for free that are deactivated from that Machine using the "slmgr /upk" command in the command prompt. All keys are retail, not OEM etc etc. You can even do phone activation if you wish by using the slui 04 command. I don't see your point here but if you'd like to state what you think I'm doing go ahead.

Spoiler: Key Example

 

[Justis]

Just to actually give this a proper discussion: How would you suggest that MCM go about ensuring that all of the keys being sold are genuine retail keys, and not OEM or volume? You said you aren’t suggesting that MCM start allowing cracked or illegally obtained keys, but if we are unable to differentiate between them, then that’s exactly what we would be doing, is it not?

Moreover, regarding your "perfectly legal method for obtaining these keys" it is my understanding that the keys are pulled off of old systems that were sold to or otherwise acquired by whoever your windows key provider is. Understand that being sold some hardware does not automatically grant you ownership over everything retained in that hardware’s memory. If I fork over the standard $100 for a retail copy of Windows 10, that key is associated with me as an individual, not the machines I activate with them. If I upgrade or replace my machine, I can reinstall the software and activate it with my key. The Windows EULA is very clear about this. Which means, if you obtain my old system, you have no right to run "simgr /upk" on it, and pull my license off of that machine and resell it as your own. That, is completely illegal. It is not your license, it is mine unless I have specifically sold the key to you. I must wonder exactly how many of the license keys your provider has obtained were actually sold to him, and how many were illegally pulled off of machines without the knowledge or consent of the license owner. That’s certainly not something MC-Market can verify.

The fact that the majority of sales would be illegal, if we were to allow it again is more than enough to say no to this suggestion. However, I also want to touch a bit on a couple little impacts it can have on real people if these keys are purchased. After all, to my understanding it is only the EU’s court system that has recognized the legality of the resale of retail software licenses. That ruling does not apply to the United States or any country outside of the EU; and with Microsoft not actively jumping up to support the resale of their licenses, the only people who can honestly benefit from that ruling are the original EU license owners who just want to legally transfer their license to a friend or family member. The reason for this is because upon activation, details about the system will be sent to Microsoft and if they detect something suspicious, they may require phone verification, or an input from the user verifying how many systems are running that Windows key. Obviously, if you are obtaining your keys exactly as you described, then you don’t know how many systems are running any particular key out of your hundreds of keys because the real license holder may be activating it on several of their own machines. Which means the user you resold the key to may be way off on the answer they provide to the automated question, which may result in the key being deactivated, robbing not just your buyer of the illegally sold key they bought from you, but also the original license owner who paid $100 for it, unless they are lucky enough to still have the original packaging and can call up a Microsoft support center, speak with an irritated agent and hopefully but not necessarily get it re-activated.

All this said, I believe that allowing these keys to be resold again will only reintroduce more hypocrisy and unethical practices to our marketplace. In terms of growing into the platform we aim to be, this would be the wrong direction.

 

[Samuel V]

Just to actually give this a proper discussion: How would you suggest that MCM go about ensuring that all of the keys being sold are genuine retail keys, and not OEM or volume? You said you aren’t suggesting that MCM start allowing cracked or illegally obtained keys, but if we are unable to differentiate between them, then that’s exactly what we would be doing, is it not?

Moreover, regarding your "perfectly legal method for obtaining these keys" it is my understanding that the keys are pulled off of old systems that were sold to or otherwise acquired by whoever your windows key provider is. Understand that being sold some hardware does not automatically grant you ownership over everything retained in that hardware’s memory. If I fork over the standard $100 for a retail copy of Windows 10, that key is associated with me as an individual, not the machines I activate with them. If I upgrade or replace my machine, I can reinstall the software and activate it with my key. The Windows EULA is very clear about this. Which means, if you obtain my old system, you have no right to run "simgr /upk" on it, and pull my license off of that machine and resell it as your own. That, is completely illegal. It is not your license, it is mine unless I have specifically sold the key to you. I must wonder exactly how many of the license keys your provider has obtained were actually sold to him, and how many were illegally pulled off of machines without the knowledge or consent of the license owner. That’s certainly not something MC-Market can verify.

The fact that the majority of sales would be illegal, if we were to allow it again is more than enough to say no to this suggestion. However, I also want to touch a bit on a couple little impacts it can have on real people if these keys are purchased. After all, to my understanding it is only the EU’s court system that has recognized the legality of the resale of retail software licenses. That ruling does not apply to the United States or any country outside of the EU; and with Microsoft not actively jumping up to support the resale of their licenses, the only people who can honestly benefit from that ruling are the original EU license owners who just want to legally transfer their license to a friend or family member. The reason for this is because upon activation, details about the system will be sent to Microsoft and if they detect something suspicious, they may require phone verification, or an input from the user verifying how many systems are running that Windows key. Obviously, if you are obtaining your keys exactly as you described, then you don’t know how many systems are running any particular key out of your hundreds of keys because the real license holder may be activating it on several of their own machines. Which means the user you resold the key to may be way off on the answer they provide to the automated question, which may result in the key being deactivated, robbing not just your buyer of the illegally sold key they bought from you, but also the original license owner who paid $100 for it, unless they are lucky enough to still have the original packaging and can call up a Microsoft support center, speak with an irritated agent and hopefully but not necessarily get it re-activated.

All this said, I believe that allowing these keys to be resold again will only reintroduce more hypocrisy and unethical practices to our marketplace. In terms of growing into the platform we aim to be, this would be the wrong direction.

Sure, I agree. It's hard to check the legality of a specific user's sales.. but I could say the same about Nitro, Gift Cards, Xenforo Licenses, Java Edition Keys.. etc. It's all impossible to determine if someone's keys are all legal and all allowed.

In terms of your argument about Windows keys, to my knowledge, Retail keys can only be activated once and cannot be re-activated until the other device is deactivated using the command prompt and keys that are allowed to be activated on multiple devices are known as Volume Licenses which are regarded the same as OEM. In the case that the license is already on another device, the following error is displayed:

Spoiler: Error

Unfortunately, this is all a question about ethics.

 

[Justis]

Sure, I agree. It's hard to check the legality of a specific user's sales.. but I could say the same about Nitro, Gift Cards, Xenforo Licenses, Java Edition Keys.. etc. It's all impossible to determine if someone's keys are all legal and all allowed.

In terms of your argument about Windows keys, to my knowledge, Retail keys can only be activated once and cannot be re-activated until the other device is deactivated using the command prompt and keys that are allowed to be activated on multiple devices are known as Volume Licenses which are regarded the same as OEM. In the case that the license is already on another device, the following error is displayed:

Spoiler: Error

Unfortunately, this is all a question about ethics.

Plenty of our users have gift cards that they simply don’t want and would like to resell, but how many of our users have a Windows license that they would like to resell? Licenses they actually own? Maybe none. Given how prevalent cracking Windows keys is, the Windows key you paid $100 for is going to end up being sold for pennies. It’s not worth it. For Windows keys sold in bulk, it is safe to assume they were obtained through cracking/theft or other illegal methods like the one I described in your supplier's case. For other products, when we have good reason to believe someone may be reselling stolen content, we will message them and ask for proof of legitimate purchase. If this cannot be provided, the thread is taken down. You could argue that we could do the same for Windows keys, but for the reason I just gave, I don’t believe there’s ever been a case on MCM where someone has actually tried reselling a retail Windows key that they actually own. We would be opening the floodgates for practically nothing but illegal content and giving ourself more work for no real benefit to any legitimate sellers.

As for your screenshot, my example was pulled from testimonies of past people who had been put in similar situations. Perhaps it’s different across Windows version, not that it matters. If it’s as you described, the rightful owner of the key will not be able to activate their software when they set up a new machine unless they (most likely) call up support and if they’re lucky, can get them to disable the key on the machine it’s currently active on, which would be your buyer. So either your buyer or the rightful owner loses the key they paid for.

You’re right, it is a question of ethics. MCM’s goal is to remove unethical content from the marketplace. Would you agree that to strive towards that goal, the best decision is to keep Windows keys off of our platform?

 

[Justis]

You can certainly card a gift card. You can also card nitro and bitcoin. You can socially engineer amazon products and resell them on MC-M? If windows keys are illegal just because they could be cracked, why can you sell other things that could be cracked?[DOUBLEPOST=1599950558][/DOUBLEPOST]

Hey justis, buy my windows 10 key since i want to switch to mac : )

You can obtain any digital product illegally or through cracking. I never made the case that doing so was impossible for other products. Only that essentially all windows keys ever sold on our site have been obtained through illegal methods.
You’re also receiving a full warning due to that last statement because it’s quite obvious given the context of this thread that you knew offering windows 10 keys is not permitted here.

 

[Sky.]

You can obtain any digital product illegally or through cracking. I never made the case that doing so was impossible for other products. Only that essentially all windows keys ever sold on our site have been obtained through illegal methods.
You’re also receiving a full warning due to that last statement because it’s quite obvious given the context of this thread that you knew offering windows 10 keys is not permitted here.

I don't think thats what he was getting at. I think a point he was trying to make is that Samuel could by keys of users who don't need them. I know tons of people who've switched from windows and have sold their key.
[DOUBLEPOST=1599993451][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, if microsoft had a problem with it, they'd of shut down many sites by now. Examples being G2A and cdkeys.

 

[Justis]

I don't think thats what he was getting at. I think a point he was trying to make is that Samuel could by keys of users who don't need them. I know tons of people who've switched from windows and have sold their key.
[DOUBLEPOST=1599993451][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, if microsoft had a problem with it, they'd of shut down many sites by now. Examples being G2A and cdkeys.

Yep, that last statement was allegedly meant as an example despite how it’s actually phrased. I’ve already withdrew my decision to go straight to points and handled that.

As for what you’ve added, whether or not Microsoft does a good job of actively combatting sales of their content doesn’t change the fact that how they're practically always obtained is through illegal means and our TOS (rightly) prohibits illegal content/business.

 

[root]

First off, thanks for taking the points away. Second, maybe you should input a sort of system in which the seller must verify that he has obtained his keys legally/ethically. (E.g. giving the HWID of the device he deactivated to get the key, or through a staff member).

Staff take months for a scam report
are we going to end up with

 

[Cal]

Oh the selective enforcement of ethical standards on MCM are ever fluxuating.
Every so often one product group will get chased down for being unethical.
A little bit ago is was the piracy issue surrounding everything related to plugins. Then before that there was the "no more selling streaming service accounts". There is still a lot of looking the other way about all the cracked accounts for sale on the accounts forum.

It seems like the core issue here is the site has yet to decide if it is going to commit to being ethical or if it will look the other way.
I would expect most people on the site don't care which way that is. It like the site wants to be ethical, but the lack of commitment to enforcing ethical standards universally (IE: pirated windows keys) says otherwise.

 

[Sullybash12]

the sale of mc accounts goes against Mojang's TOS (microsoft) so I see no issue with this

 

[Doge]

Oh the selective enforcement of ethical standards on MCM are ever fluxuating.
Every so often one product group will get chased down for being unethical.
A little bit ago is was the piracy issue surrounding everything related to plugins. Then before that there was the "no more selling streaming service accounts". There is still a lot of looking the other way about all the cracked accounts for sale on the accounts forum.

It seems like the core issue here is the site has yet to decide if it is going to commit to being ethical or if it will look the other way.
I would expect most people on the site don't care which way that is. It like the site wants to be ethical, but the lack of commitment to enforcing ethical standards universally (IE: pirated windows keys) says otherwise.

I love this the most:

"Banning the Sale of Minecraft Accounts" - 155 disagree, 95 agree - Pending
https://www.mc-market.org/threads/534800/
The argument is that it's to be "consistent" and "enforce company ToS'"

"Delete all 16 subforums breaking other sites TOS'" - 20 agree, 10 disagree - Denied
https://www.mc-market.org/threads/592556/
The argument is that if you want to be "consistent" then that means banning everything that violates a ToS.

Just shows that it was never really about consistency or ethics.

 

[Sloth]

As mentioned by a few other users, Mc-Market needs to stop picking and choosing when they want to be ethical. You can’t remove a certain product from one section of the site but keep another if they’re both breaking a companies TOS/promoting illegal activities.

It simply makes Mc-Market disingenuous and laughable at best.

 

[Samuel V]

the sale of mc accounts goes against Mojang's TOS (microsoft) so I see no issue with this

rip your point

 

[Sullybash12]

rip your point

?

 

[Samuel V]

?

they removed the sale of minecraft accounts so.. your point is no longer valid

 

[bt2S5NpQVjX9yGNKJ]

I love this the most:

"Banning the Sale of Minecraft Accounts" - 155 disagree, 95 agree - Pending
https://www.mc-market.org/threads/534800/
The argument is that it's to be "consistent" and "enforce company ToS'"

"Delete all 16 subforums breaking other sites TOS'" - 20 agree, 10 disagree - Denied
https://www.mc-market.org/threads/592556/
The argument is that if you want to be "consistent" then that means banning everything that violates a ToS.

Just shows that it was never really about consistency or ethics.

Justis, what is your response to this?