Patent System?

[Zeiyon]

So I was thinking.
I hate it when I make something, and some kids think 'oh he is earning money with this, Ill start doing the same'. But they offer a really bad service/product for 1/5 the price of mine.
Now obviously they will get more sales, as they have a cheaper product, and I might get some recognition. Which is not how it should be.
So I was thinking, maybe we could have a 'Patent' type of system, where people can apply for some things and others won't be able to steal their ideas.
Now I understand this is a marketplace, and as such I think it should only be on very specific things.
Maybe an example would be, like Essential Messages.

I am not supporting this 100%, but I would like to know what the community thinks about this.

 

[M6Gaming]

This just seems excessive.

I've seen businesses copy others like no tomorrow, and they're rarely successful at the end. If they're low quality, what is there to worry about. Users definitely give themselves props when they're the "original" business to do something, and there have been newer businesses that lay on top of an idea giving it that new stretch. At the end of the day, it's a huge world for everyone.

Another problem I see is enforcement. How will users know a "patent" is already created, especially new members joining for the first time. It just seems like too much trouble setting up, enforcing, and generally having. And it'll definitely remove the element of competition, which is something that is very strong in this community and the basic foundation of a Marketplace.

In other words, it's a no in my eyes.

 

[Zeiyon]

This just seems excessive.

I've seen businesses copy others like no tomorrow, and they're rarely successful at the end. If they're low quality, what is there to worry about. Users definitely give themselves props when they're the "original" business to do something, and there have been newer businesses that lay on top of an idea giving it that new stretch. At the end of the day, it's a huge world for everyone.

Another problem I see is enforcement. How will users know a "patent" is already created, especially new members joining for the first time. It just seems like too much trouble setting up, enforcing, and generally having. And it'll definitely remove the element of competition, which is something that is very strong in this community and the basic foundation of a Marketplace.

In other words, it's a no in my eyes.

Thank you for your words on this.
I do disagree that if they are low quality there should be nothing to worry about.
That would be the case, but for some reason, people on MCM like to favor the Cheaper things, which most likely is also low quality.
For example, I was doing all fine when I started releasing my setups in the resource section, but then a HUGE flood of people with their own version of non-exclusive setups came around (not trying to be rude, but most were just some kids trying to get a few extra bucks from 5 minutes of work) and my sales dropped exponentially.

I agree with you on the enforcement part. You are a staff member, so you know a lot more than regular members about enforcing rules. But maybe we could have it, like I said, on very specific things? Plus we could have a thread be a (patent) and if you see someone coping your service, in a very specific manner, then you report it with that thread link. Maybe it could work.
But we would need to approve/disapprove all the (patents) which would take quite a large amount of time and resources.

 

[Mick]

Things being 'patented' may be good for sellers, but definitely not for buyers. Imagine if Jack patented the idea of a username sniper so that only he offered the service. He could charge whatever he likes for it if there's no competition, right?

 

[Justis]

I'm majority in agreement with what M6Gaming has said.
However, I just want to further express the difficulty of marking "ideas" as belonging to a specific person.
And actually, I'm completely against that.
For the competition aspect, as M6 has stated, and...
We're a small marketplace, and the products that are sold here, are.... Honestly. Hardly ever significant enough to be called 'original' or to even warrant a patent.
Most of the time, even if you're the first person to do something on MC-Market, you're not the first person to have done it period.
The ideas that go around here go around like a virus, everyone slightly modifying them and wanting to call them their own.

We already give 20 point warnings when people attempt to sell someone else's work.
But if you see a three color message format on a server, and you like it, and you make something similar, you're free to sell it. That's your work.
We won't ever claim it's your idea.
We won't punish other people who make a chat color design also similar to yours.
Again, there's no way to determine the original 'idea maker'.

And what happens when the teen that made the idea grows up in a year or two, gets a real job? Nobody is ever allowed to make a product based off of what they made?
That's ridiculous.

I've said it before, but complex solutions are not solutions at all. They often create more problems, themselves.

Yes, there will be a lot of frustrated creators, as other people attempt to follow the demand and create cheaper supply, but having ideas be free, and the product itself be the only thing owned, that is the safest and fairest way for a small marketplace like us to continue enforcing ownership.

 

[DaCavE]

Another problem I see is enforcement. How will users know a "patent" is already created, especially new members joining for the first time. It just seems like too much trouble setting up, enforcing, and generally having. And it'll definitely remove the element of competition, which is something that is very strong in this community and the basic foundation of a Marketplace.

I agree with this. Even if there was a solution for this on the public pages of MCM, what stops users from dealing through private messages with the supposedly patented material/business.

 

[Zeiyon]

Things being 'patented' may be good for sellers, but definitely not for buyers. Imagine if Jack patented the idea of a username sniper so that only he offered the service. He could charge whatever he likes for it if there's no competition, right?

I agree, I guess this would be a foolish idea.
I think it should get declined than.
Thank you M6Gaming, Mick and Justis for your feedback.

 

[buildblox]

What happens if someone breaks the so-called "patent?" Are we going to sue them? I feel you're looking for a more extreme approach to the end of it all (sorry if I misinterpreted it).
I feel it would be difficult to regulate such a system, and even harder to figure out what crosses the imaginary line of "this is mine and this is not yours."

However, intellectual property does indeed need to be protected. If someone could come up with a nice solution, I'll definitely support it to whatever end necessary. It doesn't matter if we're on a Minecraft forum: if someone creates something and you immediately start to see rip-offs blossoming around the place, how would you think the creator will feel about that? Patent law protects the most important base concept that drives the world and ultimately the economy: the idea.

 

[Justis]

However, intellectual property does indeed need to be protected. If someone could come up with a nice solution, I'll definitely support it to whatever end necessary.

I have to say, I've always disagreed with this. Even before MC-Market, irl. I've always hated the whole idea of 'intellectual property'. It's one of the greatest hurdles for humanity coming together, growing off each each other, and creating great and wonderful things together.
Instead of that, instead of encouraging each other's creativity, and challenging each other to do things faster, of higher quality, and cheaper, and building the world. We spend our time in courtrooms trying to leach a bunch of cash off some bloke who 'infringed on the ownership of my intellectual property'.
Imagine where the world would be if the iPhone was the only smartphone, or Ford was the only one with an assembly line. Or if Microsoft were able to claim ownership over the GUI based applications.
Just throwing it out there.
The claiming and hoarding of ideas as property to be used only at the creator's discretion is only a burden on the creative freedom, competition, and growth of mankind and all that it produces.
I would never want to encourage it here. Ever.

Again, I realize there's a lot of salty people who would hate to have their personal gains shorted for the benefit of the greater good of everyone, and that's why the idea of 'intellectual property' exists in the first place.
But as a marketplace, and powerful influence over the Minecraft industry, we at least have the ability to encourage a free and thriving creative community, here, where we can.

 

[Cal]

I disagree.
Seems very unnecessary, it could ruin up and coming MC-Market users just because they weren't there to get the patent on something their good at. It would also destroy competition on the site driving up prices and making the buyer experience generally terrible.

 

[buildblox]

I have to say, I've always disagreed with this. Even before MC-Market, irl. I've always hated the whole idea of 'intellectual property'. It's one of the greatest hurdles for humanity coming together, growing off each each other, and creating great and wonderful things together.
Instead of that, instead of encouraging each other's creativity, and challenging each other to do things faster, of higher quality, and cheaper, and building the world. We spend our time in courtrooms trying to leach a bunch of cash off some bloke who 'infringed on the ownership of my intellectual property'.
Imagine where the world would be if the iPhone was the only smartphone, or Ford was the only one with an assembly line. Or if Microsoft were able to claim ownership over the GUI based applications.
Just throwing it out there.
The claiming and hoarding of ideas as property to be used only at the creator's discretion is only a burden on the creative freedom, competition, and growth of mankind and all that it produces.
I would never want to encourage it here. Ever.

Again, I realize there's a lot of salty people who would hate to have their personal gains shorted for the benefit of the greater good of everyone, and that's why the idea of 'intellectual property' exists in the first place.
But as a marketplace, and powerful influence over the Minecraft industry, we at least have the ability to encourage a free and thriving creative community, here, where we can.

Entirely understandable, and I see your point of view. It is true that many large corporations often use and abuse patent rights, leaving smaller companies in a tough place.

But there's a difference between creative freedom and blatantly copying off one's ideas. If a user chooses to sell a slightly modified product that another user has originally been trying to work with and finally published it after months of brainstorming, then that's dead wrong. It hurts my heart to think about it.

Now look at it this way. Like you said, there's always people who put their personal gain before anything else. Those same people often hurt smaller corporations by stealing their ideas. It's the same patent law that protects those smaller corporations. That's the whole basis of a patent. It was never meant to benefit the multi-million dollar industry. It was meant to assist startups!

A great example would be that of Microsoft. Believe it or not, the DOS system was developed by a college professor on his home computer. Bill Gates met this man and found his project. A few years later, the same exact system was released (without the professor's authorization) with a single modification: the drive from which the OS booted from (the professor made it A://, whereas, now, all Windows computers boot from C://). Patent law could have protected the professor, yet he never chose to look for it. If such things could be made more readily accessible, I feel it could change protection of intellectual rights in drastic ways.

Then again, everyone is entitled to their own perspective on the topic. I just feel there is more to the law than what is seen.

 

[Justis]

buildblox

And what sort of world would we live in now if that professor had claimed 'intelectual property ownership' over that idea?
Likely decades behind where we are now, without the DOS system which has sparked loads of creative build from that point forward. It's entirely unlikely he would have gone anywhere significant with it, had he claimed ownership, and even if he had, what then? Anyone who had any interest in using a the ideas behind the DOS system would be at his mercy.
We would have to spend decades more reinventing more wheels to keep attempting to get around these 'idea property laws'.

There's no doubt he got the short end of the stick in terms of how much he gained, personally, over such a brilliant idea. However, there's also no doubt that the world has benefited immensely from the fact that he didn't claim ownership over it, and everyone was free to build off of it.

We won't get anywhere, as a species, if we have billions of different 'startups', all attempting to do things "completely different" from each other, and never build off of each other's ideas, or wheels, as they are equally comparable to.
I'm an all or nothing type of person. I find convolution in gray areas.
Despite knowing that all of my ideas, in the market I dream of, will belong to everyone else, and I won't be able to monopolize any of them to keep myself "safe" from being overpowered by someone bigger and better for personal gain. I still welcome it; because in a intellectually free market, they wouldn't be able to claim it either. My ideas, would be everyone's, and their growth potential for humanity would be limitless. Not limited to myself.

Too few people look at the bigger picture, and focus priority on personal potential instead of lasting potential.
Every major advancement we have today was made possibly by something else which was made possible by something else which was made possible by something else made possible by something else.
Humanity thrives by building off of each other.
Not by splitting apart and saying "Mine, come up with your own". That's how we keep ourselves pushed back.
I use the wheel analogy, because where would we be had intellectual property dated back to then?
Every single advancement we make is another wheel.
There's no telling how young and new our tech is to what it can be. I'm a believer that there is a natural progression to our technology and there's always a 'most efficient' solution or set of solutions, which we strive towards. By walling off those solutions to the first people who come up with them, we hold ourselves back as we look for less obvious alternatives, and limit ourselves more than we'll ever know.
It's a crime onto the infinite for the sake of a few.
And attempting to justify that and come up with systems to accommodate it will only further fight the progression of creativity, freedom, advancement, and nature itself.
It's a mistake society has made due to popular demand in the name of personal interest.
It's not what's best for everyone, it leads only to more issues; like any complex solution to a problem.

I don't mean to bring this off the topic of the original suggestion, but I do want to make it clear why I would not support the introduction of 'intellectual property' to our MC Marketplace.
Especially where ideas are so hard to trace to their original thinker, and are often thought of by multiple people at different times. (Again, natural progression)
I want us to stay away from that.

 

[buildblox]

buildblox

And what sort of world would we live in now if that professor had claimed 'intelectual property ownership' over that idea?
Likely decades behind where we are now, without the DOS system which has sparked loads of creative build from that point forward. It's entirely unlikely he would have gone anywhere significant with it, had he claimed ownership, and even if he had, what then? Anyone who had any interest in using a the ideas behind the DOS system would be at his mercy.
We would have to spend decades more reinventing more wheels to keep attempting to get around these 'idea property laws'.

There's no doubt he got the short end of the stick in terms of how much he gained, personally, over such a brilliant idea. However, there's also no doubt that the world has benefited immensely from the fact that he didn't claim ownership over it, and everyone was free to build off of it.

We won't get anywhere, as a species, if we have billions of different 'startups', all attempting to do things "completely different" from each other, and never build off of each other's ideas, or wheels, as they are equally comparable to.
I'm an all or nothing type of person. I find convolution in gray areas.
Despite knowing that all of my ideas, in the market I dream of, will belong to everyone else, and I won't be able to monopolize any of them to keep myself "safe" from being overpowered by someone bigger and better for personal gain. I still welcome it; because in a intellectually free market, they wouldn't be able to claim it either. My ideas, would be everyone's, and their growth potential for humanity would be limitless. Not limited to myself.

Too few people look at the bigger picture, and focus priority on personal potential instead of lasting potential.
Every major advancement we have today was made possibly by something else which was made possible by something else which was made possible by something else made possible by something else.
Humanity thrives by building off of each other.
Not by splitting apart and saying "Mine, come up with your own". That's how we keep ourselves pushed back.
I use the wheel analogy, because where would we be had intellectual property dated back to then?
Every single advancement we make is another wheel.
There's no telling how young and new our tech is to what it can be. I'm a believer that there is a natural progression to our technology and there's always a 'most efficient' solution or set of solutions, which we strive towards. By walling off those solutions to the first people who come up with them, we hold ourselves back as we look for less obvious alternatives, and limit ourselves more than we'll ever know.
It's a crime onto the infinite for the sake of a few.
And attempting to justify that and come up with systems to accommodate it will only further fight the progression of creativity, freedom, advancement, and nature itself.
It's a mistake society has made due to popular demand in the name of personal interest.
It's not what's best for everyone, it leads only to more issues; like any complex solution to a problem.

I don't mean to bring this off the topic of the original suggestion, but I do want to make it clear why I would not support the introduction of 'intellectual property' to our MC Marketplace.
Especially where ideas are so hard to trace to their original thinker, and are often thought of by multiple people at different times. (Again, natural progression)
I want us to stay away from that.

The best products are essentially remixes of existing products. The Macintosh computer was initially designed based off another desktop, except it featured many new types of functionalities that made it easier for the client to use the interface. Sure, it's the same concept, but many key components have been changed. Now that is evolution.

I'm not saying that creativity and freedom should be undermined (that would be quite crazy in a capitalist economy); I'm just saying that a specific idea created by someone shouldn't be allowed to be blatantly copied by some scammer to be resold.

Look at it this way: a remix is what people like to hear, just so long as it doesn't sound too similar to the original song.

Apologies to Zeiyon for going off-topic.

 

[Ivain]

No. This is going to create all sorts of bullshit of people claiming others are stealing their work when they're simply doing something differently. The IRL IP world is a cesspit of evil in so many ways now. It used to be just to protect people's work from theft, but now it's often used by larger companies to bludgeon smaller companies to death (see Food Inc. for examples). If someone is copying you, simply state as much. if you provide decent proof, this is already enough. This suggestion won't decrease the drama stemming from that either. More like the opposite.

 

[Mick]

Denied for all of the reasons stated above, thanks for the suggestion Zeiyon, glad to see you thinking about things like this!

Thanks for the suggestion