Remove total ratings and post count

[Justis]

Members' profiles should not display the total amount of ratings they've received, nor posts they've made.
This is unnecessary; and is often being mistaken as reputation.

The whole reason people try rate boosting and post farming is to build up that count.
Because other members of the forums are stupid enough to use it as basis for determining how trustworthy a member must be.

Ratings are meant only to gauge the community's reaction to a specific post.
One single post. It's counterproductive to count them.

People make alternate accounts and give each of their posts a like because when you count them all up, it makes it mean something; it makes a difference.
But a single like on a single post means little to nothing, so removing the totals will discourage alt accounting.
It will also discourage users from trusting people just because of their rate count; since a total would no longer be available.

Removing the total post count will also discourage users from post farming.
No longer will people say "Almost at 200!!!" and then go on every other guy's account thread and say "Glws", being so proud of themselves now that they've got more ratings, and are to be considered "a more reputable member of the community".

Members of MCM should be judged based off each individual post that they make.
As well as the constructive feedback of the people who've dealt with them. Positive and negative.
This will be made possible with the introduction of the new feedback feature.

I believe removing the totals will clean up our site immensely. Greatly improve the currently corrupt system; and move us in the right direction as a forum and as a community.

Anxious for your thoughts.

(If you disagree, please post a reply explaining why this is. Otherwise I'll just assume you're voting thoughtlessly)

 

[Overlord]

To be honest, although I've said before it needs to be junked because this site can't handle it, nara~kavi is right. This community is so adjusted to it that it's fragile. It'd be disastrous removing it now. Definitely not the right time.

Just gotta play around it and do what you can, then revisit this system later after other changes and see how you can fix abuse.

For one fucking thing, I genuinely found some posts funny for once but I can't use the rating funny because it seems like an insult. The OP has a majority rating of funny. Maybe if this management didn't think disagreeing with someone is a hate crime, ratings wouldn't be abused so much. At least add a neutral fucking disagree rating. I swear, the users are retarded but sometimes the forum brings it upon itself. Either BeBosny or rocket implemented this, but someone removed it. Logic?

Edit: After reading nara~kavi's post again. Really it hits the nail bang on the head with what people think in a logical way. It wouldn't reduce scamming extremely but I can see where you're coming from, since I've extremely said it, although not directly suggested, it before. A lot of my views are towards extreme change to promote change, I'm sure some extent of it will be done anyway.

Leave it as is. Until this site can get a functioning, quality marketplace this will just cause people to leave.

[DOUBLEPOST=1456353414][/DOUBLEPOST]

The site has a ton to do with this situation, It is a forum and so is this. Forums as a whole relate to this and why would I lie about a site I have been a member of since like 2012-2013? I just got done explaining how I cared about this site and I want it to do well your accusing me of lying. Also, you said that it would not effect ratings? Then why is that an option in the poll...?
http://prntscr.com/a7i5lt
and clearly the voting shows how people feel.

I'd hardly use a poll from people that:
1. still think human anatomy is as Galen described
2. think life is a joke and would vote for Kanye West in the elections because "#YOLO"

Responses count. Polls, on this site, not really.

 

[SoldierAlex]

Oh and just to clarify, I do not think ratings should be removed like Justis does but I do think that they should be uncounted. This allows for people to show their opinions while not influencing someone in to believing they are reputable with all the +1s they have under their name.

 

[Overlord]

Oh and just to clarify, I do not think ratings should be removed like Justis does but I do think that they should be uncounted. This allows for people to show their opinions while not influencing someone in to believing they are reputable with all the +1s they have under their name.

How's the wall coming along?

 

[SoldierAlex]

How's the wall coming along?

The "wall"?

 

[thebaum64]

To be honest, although I've said before it needs to be junked because this site can't handle it, nara~kavi is right. This community is so adjusted to it that it's fragile. It'd be disastrous removing it now. Definitely not the right time.

Just gotta play around it and do what you can, then revisit this system later after other changes and see how you can fix abuse.

For one fucking thing, I genuinely found some posts funny for once but I can't use the rating funny because it seems like an insult. The OP has a majority rating of funny. Maybe if this management didn't think disagreeing with someone is a hate crime, ratings wouldn't be abused so much. At least add a neutral fucking disagree rating. I swear, the users are retarded but sometimes the forum brings it upon itself. Either BeBosny or rocket implemented this, but someone removed it. Logic?

Edit: After reading nara~kavi's post again. Really it hits the nail bang on the head with what people think in a logical way. It wouldn't reduce scamming extremely but I can see where you're coming from, since I've extremely said it, although not directly suggested, it before. A lot of my views are towards extreme change to promote change, I'm sure some extent of it will be done anyway.

Leave it as is. Until this site can get a functioning, quality marketplace this will just cause people to leave.

[DOUBLEPOST=1456353414][/DOUBLEPOST]
I'd hardly use a poll from people that:
1. still think human anatomy is as Galen described
2. think life is a joke and would vote for Kanye West in the elections because "#YOLO"

Responses count. Polls, on this site, not really.

Your reasons for not using a poll killed my brain cells, also ofc Galen was wrong, he thought that muscles attach to the bone in the same way in humans and in dogs lol. Though in all honesty that does not relate to this at all so please stay on topic

 

[Justis]

SoldierAlex, No, I don't want ratings removed.
I've said this now, three separate times in this thread.
I'll say it three more times.
I don't want them removed. I don't want them removed. I don't want them removed.
I just don't want the total count displayed.

 

[SoldierAlex]

SoldierAlex, No, I don't want ratings removed.
I've said this now, three separate times in this thread.
I'll say it three more times.
I don't want them removed. I don't want them removed. I don't want them removed.
I just don't want the total count displayed.

Alright, didn't know. Just skimmed through the thread.

 

[TheNewTao]

By the way, does anyone know how to get this trade reputation percentage going? It seems like a good idea but I don't know how it works.

 

[Deep]

By the way, does anyone know how to get this trade reputation percentage going? It seems like a good idea but I don't know how it works.

Still in the works.

 

[Dannyj]

Just remove ratings count and maybe post count if it helps against post farming... People are taking rating System too serious!

 

[Overlord]

Your reasons for not using a poll killed my brain cells, also ofc Galen was wrong, he thought that muscles attach to the bone in the same way in humans and in dogs lol. Though in all honesty that does not relate to this at all so please stay on topic

You hurt my brain cells.

Polls are useless when your members have no logic. It's like the polls on the Kesha case - celebrity fans would follow what Kesha says without one sense of what's actually right or wrong. Polls are useless if they don't come with replies, at least here. A democracy of a large number of people is good because usually the idiots are overruled by the people with logic. MC-Market needs more responses than a poll. Being a forum admin myself, I like to see polls to see if there's an overwhelming majority, but I usually take to posts for accurate conclusions.

It is relevant - I don't think you know what an analogy is, and my idea was of acceptance and how long it really takes to catch up with reality, less of how he was wrong (which, yeah, you're right).

 

[Devon]

We should just delete the files from the website, that way nobody thinks they are more reputable than anyone else and we are all equals

 

[Justis]

The thing is, ratings & message count do represent reputation (somewhat). It shows how dedicated you are to the community, and shows how good your advice is to others. Someone could still easily create fake accounts to fake vouch for them.

No it doesn't.
As long as you keep spam posting stuff on the forums, even if it's not contributive, you will always be increasing your numbers.
"Glws" "Vouch" "Justin Bieber is stupid"...
Ratings mean nothing, but because we've glorified them as we have, new users will join and see those ratings and think that the member who's acquired them must be really trustworthy in business, or a really agreeable person.
Spam the forums, and one or two controversial posts like this one, and you'll be "dedicated" and "reputable" in no time.
Right?
And we should keep teaching our new members that join each and every day that if they go around and get themselves a bunch of ratings, we will respect them...
That's not the kind of attitude I want to promote.
"I have more ratings than you, therefore I am more reputable".
It's been burned into our minds, some of us even believe it.

It would also be easier for old people to scam because they have nothing to lose. It would also be easier for new people because there is no way to gauge "seniority."

When the new trade rating is introduced, this will no longer be a problem.(Though ratings were never a reliable way to judge that anyways)
People will be able to see, much more clearly, how many successful/bad transactions a user has been involved in, than you would ever be able to tell from just looking at their ratings.

 

[Malfunction]

This is unnecessary; and is often being mistaken as reputation.

To address your first point, consider the point of ratings. I will return to this idea many times in my reply. Publicly displayed ratings show a user's effect on the community as a whole. When producing content (how much content produced can be seen in Post Count), ratings allow users to give feedback.

Positive feedback that contributes to your publicly displayed rating count is designed to show how much positive feedback you've received on all of your posts. There isn't a meter showing positive-to-negative feedback, but users are encouraged to infer that if someone has 50 posts and 50 positive ratings, the user must be creating very well-received content. If someone has 300 posts and 20 positive ratings, the user must not be creating very well-received content.

The whole reason people try rate boosting and post farming is to build up that count.
Because other members of the forums are stupid enough to use it as basis for determining how trustworthy a member must be.

Here is where your argument begins to falter. And it's honestly very disappointing to publicly hear this from a representative of this website. It is not the publicly displayed rating's fault that people misinterpret it. In my previous paragraph, I said, "...users are encouraged to infer..." Your problem is that users are wrongly deducing the meaning of ratings.

The solution to this is not to remove ratings. It is to educate your user base, or make the ratings more clear. Given the many comments on this post, I'm sure you can agree that the community as a whole appreciates and values ratings. Thus, the staff of this website should rightly be disinclined to remove ratings. Instead, they should work towards 1) refining the ratings system, making it easier to understand, or 2) educating the user base.

Ratings are meant only to gauge the community's reaction to a specific post.
One single post. It's counterproductive to count them.

It is not. The ratings on a particular post serve a different purpose than the public, cumulative count of a user's ratings. I've already outlined the use of the cumulative count, and in this quote you have accurately described the use of a specific post's ratings. It is good to define a difference between the two.

...removing the totals will discourage alt accounting. It will also discourage users from trusting people just because of their rate count; since a total would no longer be available. Removing the total post count will also discourage users from post farming.

I concede that removing both a publicly displayed post count and ratings count would discourage both boosting (via alt accounts) and post farming. However, as outlined previously, the answer is not to remove ratings. The community would be greatly upset and disappointed if this were to happen. Thus, I advise MCM to take a different route in preventing alting.

Post farming is a topic that should be taken from the same approach as ratings. Educate the user base.

I agree that ratings do not equal reputation. However, many can agree that if a user has been on this forum for a long time, has a high post count, a high ratings count, and is Premium/Supreme, the user is disinclined to scam. Why? Because the user has a lot to lose. A user with a high ratings count and post count has spent a lot of time on this forum contributing content. They have integrated themselves into the community successfully.

The great thing about this community, as well as others, is that it develops a self-managing ability. If someone is rate boosting or post farming, it becomes increasingly apparent to other community members, and such a user that is farming for posts or boosting is quickly identified and reported.

The main point you outline is that new users become confused by these statistics, believing that because a user has a high ratings count, they are reputable. I repeat myself, again. Promote quality content, educate the user base on what ratings are, and/or make ratings more easily understandable.

New users should know that when purchasing anything from another user, look for these things:

• Posts. Look at the user's posts and see what kind of content they are contributing to the community.
• Ratings. Is the user's content well-received? Additionally, are the same users "agreeing" and "liking" over and over?
• Vouches. Are reputable/well-known members vouching this user?
• Activity. When did this user join? Are they new?
• Membership. Are they Premium or Supreme? This makes the user less likely to scam because they have something to lose from being banned.
• Location. Is the user insistent on using communication methods you are not comfortable with? When in doubt, always use MCM's private messaging feature.
• Price. Search around for competing products. Is this user selling something for an unbelievably low price?

 

[Justis]

Malfunction
I appreciate the long and thought out reply.
I blame only myself for having not made my purpose clear in my original post; since you seem to have missed it entirely.

We, as a website, as a community, since the very beginning, since the post count and rating count were visible... Have always encouraged that users regard those two numbers as reputation on the site, and that person's value to the community.
Not through words, but through the simple act of displaying them there.
No matter how many individual users staff and knowledgable members have convinced that "Ratings are not reputation", 100 more join the site, and assume the same.
This is not our new users' fault.
It is a flaw with our own design. It is a result of displaying the totals.
Our system then encourages these members to harvest posts and ratings for the sake of generating higher numbers, which will then be interpreted by other users as being dedicated to the site. That's the only logical answer, right?
A person has a large amount of numbers, they must have been here for a while, and they must be producing content that is beneficial to the community.
False. It is only the quickest and easiest (though most inaccurate) way to determine that, which is the majority of your argument... But it is also what I want to rid this site of.
Because people will always use the quickest and easiest way to determine anything.
A user having a lot of ratings does not mean they have been on this site longer, it does not mean that their time spent here is more beneficial to the community, it does not mean that they have engaged in more deals than other users and it certainly doesn't mean they are valued.
Some users spend a majority of their day in the shoutbox.
Some users make most of their threads in the many ratings-disabled sections.
Some users don't do business on threads, and prefer to communicate to members through private messages..
Some users spend a lot of their time in the general discussion section simply talking with the rest of the community without hope for increasing their rating ratio.
Neither message count, nor rating count work.
Other users don't care. They'll simply post to post, and post to get ratings.
In a few months, a user can accumulate more posts and ratings than a user who has remained dedicated to this site for years.
As long as they are creating posts in the right sections, ratings will always be flooding in.
This generates content on the site that is neither valuable to the member posting it, nor to the members reading..
Even if these members are never truly recognized as valuable to the community, we allow them that initial impression, as long as they have those totals, because we want to be recognized the same way for our "Accomplishments".
Accomplishments being having filled up the forums enough with our "content" to have numbers that make us have an apparent value.
A system leading to low quality posts flooding the forums, and low quality people being glorified by their numbers also leads to staff needing to crack down and attempt to whip everyone back out of chaos where you can abuse to get on top.
But if our system encourages and supports the abuse, trying to restrain what we're birthing leads to disdain between the members making the posts and the staff knocking them back.
All the while, the users who silently observe and watch over the community without hoping for ratings or increasing their numbers... Those who don't reach 1111 posts on their thread celebrating their reaching 1000 posts... The members who don't ask for winner ratings from everyone they've dealt with every time they make a new sales thread for their 'OG' account... The members who care about MCM, and who's posts matter just as much... Get tossed aside, forgotten, unnoticed, and overlooked.
By high rated and low rated members alike.
Because they don't have the numbers necessary to "prove" their value.
Sure, some people notice... Few people get noticed.... Every now and then.
But when it comes down to it, ratings and post numbers are quicker and easier, and as long as they are there, they will always be used for first assumptions, and they'll always be motivating low quality members to make low quality posts for a high quality impressions. Motivating more and more members every new join to do the same.. And the system repeats itself. The only thing holding the forums together are the rules and efforts of the staff team who deal with countless reports every day, punishing the users who fall into the madness of the system we found most convenient.

The solution is not to create more rules.
The solution is not to more harshly enforce them.
The solution is not to talk to every member and try and convince them like I am trying to convince every one viewing this thread that these totals don't mean what everyone has been lead to believe they mean.
The solution is to eliminate the problem right at it's source.
Remove the totals from view.
Disable users' ability to attempt to judge each other based off these two meaningless numbers, and prevent future members from pumping significance into them, as we have.

I hope you can see, as I do, that these numbers are more harmful to the community than they are good.
If we never take the step in the right direction, we can never reach our goal.
We can never be the site and the community that we want to be.