Scam reports

[Ajdin]

Hello,

There have been more and more scam reports lately. Many of these have been going via Skype. People have been using Skype a lot to make deals with mainly because it's easy to use, everyone has it and messages get sent and delivered instantly.

Skype has plenty of downsides too, especially when they are used as proof with scam reports.

No matter what kind of proof you provide, it's all fake-able in some sort. Videos, gifs, screenshots: All can be faked, it might all take time but it can be faked.

Therefore I think all deals should be done via PM. If they are not done via PM, the deal shouldn't be eligible for a scam report.

This would also decrease the amount of impersonators, skype jackers(my skype got jacked) and so on.

Most of you think: real issue with this is: The PM system is disgusting to use compared to Skype. It's not instant.

Well, is it worth? Is it worth risking money to be able to talk with a potential scammer in a better way? If anything, MCM could look into getting a IM addon. Many of these are available. Somewhat like Facebook's chat but for Xenforo.

If that doesn't interest you, you could approach it in a different way and use Slack or Discord. Sure, it requires some management but both have a feature where you can create invites for single users and they can sign up for it.

I've seen some Minecraft servers and other forums use it and it's a great way to communicate. However most of these applications allow editing of messages and screenshots can still be faked so I suggest staying with a on-site alike system.

This should be considered and thought about carefully.

For those of you who don't know what Slack or Discord is. They are both skype-alike programs but made for communities or companies. They allow PM'ing users and creating channels. Discord even allows communication over voice. I use both for other projects and they are both great. Discord is becoming more and more popular amongst gamers.
Both of these are safe and your IP cannot get resolved unlike Skype.

Thanks to nara~kavi for coming up with the original idea.

Edit: If you're voting, I'd love to see some input anyways. Especially to those who don't want anything changed.

 

[montyburly]

I'm in agreement with what montyburly has said,
Introducing another viable method of communication between users should be done.
I made a suggestion for reducing the time in pms or implementing a live messenger, over a month ago. http://www.mc-market.org/threads/47762/ Describing the problems with how it's current refresh rate, and message cooldown restrict us.
I've long since wanted to see this implemented, just due to the benefits it would provide.

However, Skype users should never be abandoned.
Skype is, as you said, universal. 'Everyone' has it.
On phones, on the computer, Skype is an instant messaging platform that has had so many years of development, by professionals, for everyone; and it's worked it's way into our lives as much as motor vehicles.

It is the preferred method of communication for people who actually like to get to know who they're dealing with before dealing with them, while dealing with them, or after.

Make no mistake.
Contrary to what nara~kavi might suggest...
Business has, and always will be about communication. Relationships.

You don't get anywhere in life by burning all your bridges as soon as you build them.
You maintain contact with the people you work with, and they with you.
It makes you stronger, expands your resources... Who you know, is everything.
It is.

Skype, having been implemented in our lives so seamlessly, is currently the best way to achieve this.

Demanding that Skype users should not be allowed the same support or recognition regarding scam reports is outrageous.
While, yes it is almost certainly the best way to solve impersonation, false evidence, etc..... It comes at too high a cost.

Handicapping everyone who's made Skype their arms, legs, and mouth.
Forcing them to adopt a sort of crutch, forcing them to use an alternative such as Slack, or Discord, etc.
And... If we want to maintain the principles of business relationships...
Burn those alt com methods into our lives as well.

Skype needs to be supported.
For those of us that need Skype.

However, instead of limiting the options we have, providing more, such as a better instant messaging system, or close integration of the website with Slack or other... That's a good idea.
It would provide benefits that Skype cannot offer, while still leaving that open to us.

This would not eliminate scams, nor the need for scam reports...
But it would provide us with the tools and resources necessary to make sure that we can, for the most part, avoid them if we choose.
Which has always been the goal.

Selling accounts and other Minecraft items doesn't require personal relationships lol. I keep my transactions short and simple, and that's all they require. I don't need to add someone on a slow unoptimized program like Skype and make small talk before selling them an account. I send two or three PMs with a client and the deal is done. I understand some people like using Skype for deals but the cons far outweigh the pros. Skype deals are more time consuming, people are prone to being scammed by impersonators, Skype makes it easy to find people's IPs leaving them prone to DDOSing, and it is not sufficient proof in a scam report. I don't use Skype for the above reasons and because I don't feel like getting those awful spam mass messages that everyone seems to send and because it's a laggy program that is pretty much impossible to use on mobile at all.

There's just no real reason people should have to use a third party program for deals instead of MCM. Until staff steps up and makes the PM system easier or adds and IM system, though, people will still rely on Skype.

 

[TellingMom]

What would you like me to say? We don't recommend using Skype and I clearly stated we should be trying to influence people to stay on the site to conduct deals. Which endorses new things like IM features on the site.

I'm sorry my response does not meet your standards sir, please forgive me for not being perfect in my response. Considering this isn't even your post, I don't know why you are judging the quality of posts, surely that's up to the Mods and OP..

Someone clearly didn't get what they wanted for christmas...

Mick & K3 deal with suggestions, I cannot tell someone their suggestion is approved or will happen as I cannot do that. As stated above, I endorse all the suggestions made. We need to make some changes and it's very heartwarming to see people wanting to help and throwing out their own ideas.

Could you be anymore condescending?

Just to clear a few thing up... I'm female, so the proper honorific is Ms or maam. It's ok tho

As far as concerning me... well, I'm a member of the community just like everyone else, and I'd like to think my opinion matters too. I wrote a similar thread on the subject, so we share a common opinion. The OP seems to agree with me as well, considering they rated my response 'like'.

You agreed, but then went on to say nothing could be done. When other sites have problems, they find solutions. From your response, it sounds like you just couldn't be bothered. Are you afraid that if we had a system in place to squelch scamming that you may no longer be relevant on this site?

I don't know you, but now I can see why so many people dislike you. The way you talk to people is so unprofessional. Looking at some of your other responses, the arrogance is so strong. Do you feel better talking down to people, rather than at them? How you're allowed to speak on behalf of the site is beyond me.

 

[Overlord]

Haha! You're full of stupid ideas. Oh, you make me laugh.

The scam reports system has a serious flaw. One, compliance officers??? LOL. Two, I never realised MCM users were taxpayers that paid MCM to run the FBI scam reports section to lawfully deal with scam complaints.

The damn forum has NOTHING to do with it. There's some sort of job, possibly, to protect users against known scammers, but no need to go out policing the streets. The damn section is a joke. If you're scammed you contact PayPal, your bank, whoever and get your money back and explain how you got scammed. You use the brain that was given to you by your parents and apply it to not get scammed in the first place. All the section does is make people more prone to getting scammed. They'll learn, maybe not after 1 time, but after 3, how to not get scammed... To actually google "how to not get scammed" and follow the tips. Right now, people are ignorant.

Digitalpoint is a marketplace more than 10x the size of this and they don't have 1/100 of the amount of scams this place does. I mean, there's probably less problems dealing with sellers on eBay!

This is a forum for buyers to FIND sellers, sellers to FIND buyers. It is not law enforcement.

Regarding your post, because using Discord changes a lot, and Slack isn't aimed for this. It's a tool for businesses and team members, not a communication tool for casuals. It doesn't even function for this purpose due to limitations it has in place.

You're telling people to stop using Skype, their communication system, in order to receive support from a stupid system in the first place? Sure. Homeland Security also says avoid use of Java if possible, as well as Adobe Reader. If absolutely required, please keep them up to date. Doesn't mean that they tell the FBI to not work against Java and Adobe targeted malware. Doesn't mean PayPal will stop users with Java installed from using the resolutions center.

Honestly... where did you find your logic?

A live messenger for XenForo is not a good idea, server resources would have heavy loads, bandwidth use increases and it's going to be very buggy. PMs are simply not instant enough.

 

[montyburly]

Haha! You're full of stupid ideas. Oh, you make me laugh.

The scam reports system has a serious flaw. One, compliance officers??? LOL. Two, I never realised MCM users were taxpayers that paid MCM to run the FBI scam reports section to lawfully deal with scam complaints.

The damn forum has NOTHING to do with it. There's some sort of job, possibly, to protect users against known scammers, but no need to go out policing the streets. The damn section is a joke. If you're scammed you contact PayPal, your bank, whoever and get your money back and explain how you got scammed. You use the brain that was given to you by your parents and apply it to not get scammed in the first place. All the section does is make people more prone to getting scammed. They'll learn, maybe not after 1 time, but after 3, how to not get scammed... To actually google "how to not get scammed" and follow the tips. Right now, people are ignorant.

Digitalpoint is a marketplace more than 10x the size of this and they don't have 1/100 of the amount of scams this place does. I mean, there's probably less problems dealing with sellers on eBay!

This is a forum for buyers to FIND sellers, sellers to FIND buyers. It is not law enforcement.

Regarding your post, because using Discord changes a lot, and Slack isn't aimed for this. It's a tool for businesses and team members, not a communication tool for casuals. It doesn't even function for this purpose due to limitations it has in place.

You're telling people to stop using Skype, their communication system, in order to receive support from a stupid system in the first place? Sure. Homeland Security also says avoid use of Java if possible, as well as Adobe Reader. If absolutely required, please keep them up to date. Doesn't mean that they tell the FBI to not work against Java and Adobe targeted malware. Doesn't mean PayPal will stop users with Java installed from using the resolutions center.

Honestly... where did you find your logic?

A live messenger for XenForo is not a good idea, server resources would have heavy loads, bandwidth use increases and it's going to be very buggy. PMs are simply not instant enough.

lol the scam report section is there mainly so that scammers get banned and cannot scam anyone else. staff members also occasionally give advice to those who need it on how to proceed after a scam. wanting a safer and easier way to communicate during transactions isn't stupid or unnecessary, it's logical.

 

[nara~kavi]

Haha! You're full of stupid ideas. Oh, you make me laugh.

The scam reports system has a serious flaw. One, compliance officers??? LOL. Two, I never realised MCM users were taxpayers that paid MCM to run the FBI scam reports section to lawfully deal with scam complaints.

The damn forum has NOTHING to do with it. There's some sort of job, possibly, to protect users against known scammers, but no need to go out policing the streets. The damn section is a joke. If you're scammed you contact PayPal, your bank, whoever and get your money back and explain how you got scammed. You use the brain that was given to you by your parents and apply it to not get scammed in the first place. All the section does is make people more prone to getting scammed. They'll learn, maybe not after 1 time, but after 3, how to not get scammed... To actually google "how to not get scammed" and follow the tips. Right now, people are ignorant.

Digitalpoint is a marketplace more than 10x the size of this and they don't have 1/100 of the amount of scams this place does. I mean, there's probably less problems dealing with sellers on eBay!

This is a forum for buyers to FIND sellers, sellers to FIND buyers. It is not law enforcement.

Regarding your post, because using Discord changes a lot, and Slack isn't aimed for this. It's a tool for businesses and team members, not a communication tool for casuals. It doesn't even function for this purpose due to limitations it has in place.

You're telling people to stop using Skype, their communication system, in order to receive support from a stupid system in the first place? Sure. Homeland Security also says avoid use of Java if possible, as well as Adobe Reader. If absolutely required, please keep them up to date. Doesn't mean that they tell the FBI to not work against Java and Adobe targeted malware. Doesn't mean PayPal will stop users with Java installed from using the resolutions center.

Honestly... where did you find your logic?

A live messenger for XenForo is not a good idea, server resources would have heavy loads, bandwidth use increases and it's going to be very buggy. PMs are simply not instant enough.

Well, I think comparing this site to the FBI is kind of ridiculous, as you seem to realize by making the comparison in the first place.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if there is going to be a scam reports section, they probably shouldn't accept evidence from a program whose chat functionality is easily alterable and forge-able. There is also the issue with impersonations on Skype that would be eliminated if people were to do business entirely on MC-Market.

I'm not saying I believe it should be required that all deals be on MC-Market, but I do think it is fair for staff to say that if you do your deal off-site, then it's not covered by staff scam reports. This would reduce the work-load on scam report staff member(s) immensely and cut back on the amount of people being scammed in general.

I don't believe Skype or any sort of instant messenger program is required for business transactions, as Monty and I make plenty of money from this website despite the fact we do not use any such program for our business. In total I believe we've lost maybe one customer because of our refusal to do business outside of the site and that's a loss that we were willing to accept, as chances are if someone wants to do business outside of the site to the extent that they are willing to back out of the deal then they probablyhave some sort of ulterior motive.

As for your earlier points, I don't really agree. You're saying scammers should be allowed on the site and be able to scam more and more people without repercussion. If you want to talk about stupid ideas, there's a pretty big one right there.

What do you think about reducing the cooldown on private messages and implementing some sort of auto-refresh feature on the private message page?

 

[Overlord]

lol the scam report section is there mainly so that scammers get banned and cannot scam anyone else. staff memers also occasionally give advice to those who need it on how to proceed after a scam. wanting a safer and easier way to communicate during transactions isn't stupid or unnecessary, it's logical.

This is a marketplace with no ties to anything official... You can post warnings on a user, that'd be a great system for a marketplace. Trade interactions. Perhaps actually improving MCM to deal with more trades on site would be a good idea too.

https://xenforo.com/community/resources/reckons-team-marketplace.4783/

This site needs that. It has a feedback system for sellers. You can categorise items. It's perfect... Users can list items, it removes the need for forums, payments for builds, add-ons, etc. can be done through PayPal and the item automatically given to the user. That removes half of the scamming aspect. Chargebacks are still a problem, but it's the user's problem to make sure they provide proof the item was received, which MCM can easily provide if need be (not to mention there's a seller's panel on the add-on above) and it's their job to win the dispute. Disputes are not scams, well, they are but it's nothing a seller can't deal with. If they lose, then that's a flaw on their part in co-ordination with PayPal's TOS. They should consider making their product bitcoin only.

https://forums.digitalpoint.com/

Here's one of the biggest marketplaces for webmasters.

https://www.webhostingtalk.com/

Here's WHT, one of the biggest marketplaces for webmasters.

These two sites alone deal more in 1 week than MCM will deal in its lifetime. Find me the scam reports section. Find me the 1000 scams reported that happen daily. The place is so active, scam free and has no "compliance officer" bullshit (I bet the correctional officers, sorry I mean compliance officers, just wanted a fancy name to look important and educated). The forum is not involved in any transaction. Sellers and buyers both love the system.

This place is a damn joke. People have less sense of trading than my goldfish. I bet it could do deals safer, and it has a 7 second memory. It doesn't remember what colour my eyes are, actually it doesn't know who I am and I don't have a goldfish anymore but that's far from the point. People are uneducated to trade here and they have no need to thanks to this site's scam reporting system. The people here aren't even classed as businessmen, at least a majority of them. People lack training or common sense, and it doesn't take much to learn how to not be scammed.

Do you know how many attempted scams happen on Steam every day? I get so many friend requests with scam attempts. Steam moderates none of it. You know what that's forced users to do? Develop common sense. I bet less scams happen for CSGO items than there are threads in the scam reports section.

Teach people to stop being ignorant, not implement some correctional officer bullshit.[DOUBLEPOST=1451169057,1451168528][/DOUBLEPOST]

Well, I think comparing this site to the FBI is kind of ridiculous, as you seem to realize by making the comparison in the first place.

Precisely! This site isn't law enforcement and has no credibility over scam reports. They can't verify the authenticity of any information and therefore have no credibility to do what is PayPal's and respective law enforcement's jobs. You simply CANNOT compare this site to the FBI, or any law enforcement for that matter, so why is MCM attempting to become law enforcement.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if there is going to be a scam reports section, they probably shouldn't accept evidence from a program whose chat functionality is easily alterable and forge-able.

Put aside my belief that the scam reports system is absolute crap for a minute and I'll reply, assuming in my response that it isn't. MCM can't regulate Skype, sure. It can regulate PMs. I run large websites and forums. We have a policy that all conversations are private. XenForo has no tool out of the box to spy on conversations. I like that. Yes, MCM is able to do so, but we respect user privacy. When it comes to threats or severe rule violations, report buttons exist and we do step in and take care of it, but other than that regulation on PMs is less, it's private. As long as everyone is safe. I don't think you want all of your PMs swept in attempt to find a 'scammer'... lol...

I'm not saying I believe it should be required that all deals be on MC-Market, but I do think it is fair for staff to say that if you do your deal off-site, then it's not covered by staff scam reports. This would reduce the work-load on scam report staff member(s) immensely and cut back on the amount of people being scammed in general.

They shouldn't have any work load in general. MCM is unnecessarily increasing its liability in such matters, and if (for some reason) a large trade actually occurs here and goes backwards and becomes a legal issue (what should actually be happening with scams) then MCM may be obligated to help more than they should.

How to cut back on people being scammed is teach them to not be ignorant. I've found 3 guides here with a quick search that actually help not get scammed, all 3 were overlooked and are dead in archives. Instead, people follow some crap written by the COs which doesn't even help stop you get scammed. I think that says enough.

I don't believe Skype or any sort of instant messenger program is required for business transactions, as Monty and I make plenty of money from this website despite the fact we do not use any such program for our business

I didn't say it was, but users want quick, customised transactions, Skype offers that to them, being one of the largest casual IM services out there.

As for your earlier points, I don't really agree. You're saying scammers should be allowed on the site and be able to scam more and more people without repercussion. If you want to talk about stupid ideas, there's a pretty big one right there.

I think scamming should be dealt with as it's set out in legislations. The consequence of being banned by our CO friends over here? A banned account, a multiaccount coming about pretty quickly, a never ending chain of scamming. The consequence of teaching people to not get scammed, of actually using the services PayPal, banks and law enforcement provide? Less scams, scammers getting their lesson by law enforcements, PayPal account closures, bank account reversals, trust lost, etc. I'd like to see the scam reports section do that.

What do you think about reducing the cooldown on private messages and implementing some sort of auto-refresh feature on the private message page?

Live Update by Chris D is a XenForo add-on that helps in conversation communication. There's a cooldown on conversations? That'd be one reason why people use Skype. An auto refresh feature would, also, sadly use a lot of server resources unnecessarily. AJAX requests like that are costly. Deferred loading like what happens in threads would work, you look at the page, it says "New replies have been added" and you click the button to load them.

 

[nara~kavi]

This is a marketplace with no ties to anything official... You can post warnings on a user, that'd be a great system for a marketplace. Trade interactions. Perhaps actually improving MCM to deal with more trades on site would be a good idea too.

https://xenforo.com/community/resources/reckons-team-marketplace.4783/

This site needs that. It has a feedback system for sellers. You can categorise items. It's perfect... Users can list items, it removes the need for forums, payments for builds, add-ons, etc. can be done through PayPal and the item automatically given to the user. That removes half of the scamming aspect. Chargebacks are still a problem, but it's the user's problem to make sure they provide proof the item was received, which MCM can easily provide if need be (not to mention there's a seller's panel on the add-on above) and it's their job to win the dispute. Disputes are not scams, well, they are but it's nothing a seller can't deal with. If they lose, then that's a flaw on their part in co-ordination with PayPal's TOS. They should consider making their product bitcoin only.

https://forums.digitalpoint.com/

Here's one of the biggest marketplaces for webmasters.

https://www.webhostingtalk.com/

Here's WHT, one of the biggest marketplaces for webmasters.

These two sites alone deal more in 1 week than MCM will deal in its lifetime. Find me the scam reports section. Find me the 1000 scams reported that happen daily. The place is so active, scam free and has no "compliance officer" bullshit (I bet the correctional officers, sorry I mean compliance officers, just wanted a fancy name to look important and educated). The forum is not involved in any transaction. Sellers and buyers both love the system.

This place is a damn joke. People have less sense of trading than my goldfish. I bet it could do deals safer, and it has a 7 second memory. It doesn't remember what colour my eyes are, actually it doesn't know who I am and I don't have a goldfish anymore but that's far from the point. People are uneducated to trade here and they have no need to thanks to this site's scam reporting system. The people here aren't even classed as businessmen, at least a majority of them. People lack training or common sense, and it doesn't take much to learn how to not be scammed.

Do you know how many attempted scams happen on Steam every day? I get so many friend requests with scam attempts. Steam moderates none of it. You know what that's forced users to do? Develop common sense. I bet less scams happen for CSGO items than there are threads in the scam reports section.

Teach people to stop being ignorant, not implement some correctional officer bullshit.[DOUBLEPOST=1451169057,1451168528][/DOUBLEPOST]
Precisely! This site isn't law enforcement and has no credibility over scam reports. They can't verify the authenticity of any information and therefore have no credibility to do what is PayPal's and respective law enforcement's jobs. You simply CANNOT compare this site to the FBI, or any law enforcement for that matter, so why is MCM attempting to become law enforcement.


Put aside my belief that the scam reports system is absolute crap for a minute and I'll reply, assuming in my response that it isn't. MCM can't regulate Skype, sure. It can regulate PMs. I run large websites and forums. We have a policy that all conversations are private. XenForo has no tool out of the box to spy on conversations. I like that. Yes, MCM is able to do so, but we respect user privacy. When it comes to threats or severe rule violations, report buttons exist and we do step in and take care of it, but other than that regulation on PMs is less, it's private. As long as everyone is safe. I don't think you want all of your PMs swept in attempt to find a 'scammer'... lol...


They shouldn't have any work load in general. MCM is unnecessarily increasing its liability in such matters, and if (for some reason) a large trade actually occurs here and goes backwards and becomes a legal issue (what should actually be happening with scams) then MCM may be obligated to help more than they should.

How to cut back on people being scammed is teach them to not be ignorant. I've found 3 guides here with a quick search that actually help not get scammed, all 3 were overlooked and are dead in archives. Instead, people follow some crap written by the COs which doesn't even help stop you get scammed. I think that says enough.


I didn't say it was, but users want quick, customised transactions, Skype offers that to them, being one of the largest casual IM services out there.


I think scamming should be dealt with as it's set out in legislations. The consequence of being banned by our CO friends over here? A banned account, a multiaccount coming about pretty quickly, a never ending chain of scamming. The consequence of teaching people to not get scammed, of actually using the services PayPal, banks and law enforcement provide? Less scams, scammers getting their lesson by law enforcements, PayPal account closures, bank account reversals, trust lost, etc. I'd like to see the scam reports section do that.


Live Update by Chris D is a XenForo add-on that helps in conversation communication. There's a cooldown on conversations? That'd be one reason why people use Skype. An auto refresh feature would, also, sadly use a lot of server resources unnecessarily. AJAX requests like that are costly. Deferred loading like what happens in threads would work, you look at the page, it says "New replies have been added" and you click the button to load them.

I find it hard to disagree with many of your points.

My only argument against what you say would be the difference between this place and the sites that you linked, and even Steam to some extent, is that this site is filled to the brim with people under the age of 15 years old.

Children are stupid and do stupid things. They scam and get scammed. There needs to be some sort of protection for idiot little kids on a site that is designed specifically to target them and take their money.

I've long held that there needs to be stickied guides on how to avoid being scammed. Guides with simple & short points that kids will actually read. That stickied guide still does not exist.

I do generally believe that if you get scammed, it's your own fault in a lot of cases. And I agree with the majority of your points. I'm just not sure if your system would work out very well on a forum predominantly occupied by prepubescent little boys.

The deferred loading thing you mention sounds like a good idea.

 

[Overlord]

I find it hard to disagree with many of your points.

My only argument against what you say would be the difference between this place and the sites that you linked, and even Steam to some extent, is that this site is filled to the brim with people under the age of 15 years old.

Children are stupid and do stupid things. They scam and get scammed. There needs to be some sort of protection for idiot little kids on a site that is designed specifically to target them and take their money.

I've long held that there needs to be stickied guides on how to avoid being scammed. Guides with simple & short points that kids will actually read. That stickied guide still does not exist.

I do generally believe that if you get scammed, it's your own fault in a lot of cases. And I agree with the majority of your points. I'm just not sure if your system would work out very well on a forum predominantly occupied by prepubescent little boys.

The deferred loading thing you mention sounds like a good idea.

See, this is what's right about your thinking. I actually have little to disagree with your logic too, I'd guess you're not 15 years old then.

Children are stupid, but banks have little children current accounts "mini accounts, many trade them as". It's to start teaching kids to manage their money. There's nothing hard in trying to learn how to not get scammed. I mean, you said you don't deal with interactions off-site. You've clearly put some thought into not getting scammed, so I'll ask you, how many times have you been scammed over your interactions on this site? I'm going to imagine not so many, if any.

It's not hard to not get scammed. I could give you 5 scenarios right now and I bet you'd do more or less the right thing in all 5. It's not difficult to notice when a 15 year old is trying to scam a 15 year old, because a quick glance in the scam reports section shows me the same techniques again and again. I'd understand if we're talking some kind of genius mastermind bank robber attempting to scam, I'm sure that'd trick a lot of people since they think it though, but the majority of pre-pubescents here don't even try to be original. They pull the same stunts and people are either desperate or ignorant and go ahead with the deal anyway. If you ask me, they deserve to get scammed again and again until they learn to not be reliant.

A thing they teach most parents these days is not to feed the kid. They start arguing, you don't stoop to their level. Silent treatment is something a lot of parents use. Arguing is futile. Once a kid starts to feel like they're gonna get fed everything and they get what they want, they become spoilt, they have a habit of not working, they have a habit of ignorance and arguing.

That said, what happens when you remove layers of protection. What happens if we didn't have law enforcement? Well, serial killers all over the streets, people would be scared to go outside. They'd increase security on their house. A lot would get home tuitions, private bodyguards. We adapt to conditions, we develop common sense. What MCM is doing now is sending a law enforcement officer to every house to stay with them 24/7 to ensure nothing happens. What happens now? Chains are open, nobody locks their doors, people don't care about their safety, there's someone looking after them. That's all fine and dandy until a serial killer gets past, kills the officer and your entire family. Not a pleasant thought.

People just need some independence. Any kid can learn the basics of trading. If they want to trade, they learn how to do it safely. Don't spoon-feed them.

I mean, I know a lot of kids have short attention spans. I guarantee most people won't read my replies because they're long. Long threads, perhaps not something kids read. A well structured thread with long and short points would be great for everyone. Short points for reference, long points for learning. MCM can really make some change in the industry here. It's up to you guys whether you want to have a safe community or a community filled with trolls, kids and people that think half of the harassment and mess around here is funny.

Maturity isn't what I expect, but at least 10% of the logic of an adult is. Especially if you're going into trading as a kid. Sadly, a lot of adults bailed ship when Minecraft for Xbox came out and all the kids came storming in.[DOUBLEPOST=1451170639,1451170304][/DOUBLEPOST]nara~kavi By the way, when you tell me that you want to help kids here get scammed less, they rate a serious conversation as "funny". They clearly have no interest in protecting themselves as traders. This site is more trollers than traders, in fact. Perhaps it's because suggestions make this more of a general discussion site than a marketplace for traders. The real good ones are overlooked, nobody comments, rates or views them.

Stuff like a portfolio implementation (https://xenforo.com/community/media/) would be a great idea for a marketplace. Someone here suggested it, it was overlooked. Albums for portfolios, images uploaded to them... That's a feature for traders. That invites real traders. Making that happen is no problem. In fact, it's a no brainer! Was it even looked into, or replied to? Nope. I believe I was (and still am) the only one to reply to the idea.

Instead, people want to focus on useless, dramatic suggestions to make this a general discussion site. Honestly, I can't tell you what you want or don't want, but at the end of the day if this site can't do it, someone will start a site that can. General discussion sites don't last, sites with purpose do. It's up to the community & Mick to decide what they'd prefer.

 

[nara~kavi]

See, this is what's right about your thinking. I actually have little to disagree with your logic too, I'd guess you're not 15 years old then.

Children are stupid, but banks have little children current accounts "mini accounts, many trade them as". It's to start teaching kids to manage their money. There's nothing hard in trying to learn how to not get scammed. I mean, you said you don't deal with interactions off-site. You've clearly put some thought into not getting scammed, so I'll ask you, how many times have you been scammed over your interactions on this site? I'm going to imagine not so many, if any.

It's not hard to not get scammed. I could give you 5 scenarios right now and I bet you'd do more or less the right thing in all 5. It's not difficult to notice when a 15 year old is trying to scam a 15 year old, because a quick glance in the scam reports section shows me the same techniques again and again. I'd understand if we're talking some kind of genius mastermind bank robber attempting to scam, I'm sure that'd trick a lot of people since they think it though, but the majority of pre-pubescents here don't even try to be original. They pull the same stunts and people are either desperate or ignorant and go ahead with the deal anyway. If you ask me, they deserve to get scammed again and again until they learn to not be reliant.

A thing they teach most parents these days is not to feed the kid. They start arguing, you don't stoop to their level. Silent treatment is something a lot of parents use. Arguing is futile. Once a kid starts to feel like they're gonna get fed everything and they get what they want, they become spoilt, they have a habit of not working, they have a habit of ignorance and arguing.

That said, what happens when you remove layers of protection. What happens if we didn't have law enforcement? Well, serial killers all over the streets, people would be scared to go outside. They'd increase security on their house. A lot would get home tuitions, private bodyguards. We adapt to conditions, we develop common sense. What MCM is doing now is sending a law enforcement officer to every house to stay with them 24/7 to ensure nothing happens. What happens now? Chains are open, nobody locks their doors, people don't care about their safety, there's someone looking after them. That's all fine and dandy until a serial killer gets past, kills the officer and your entire family. Not a pleasant thought.

People just need some independence. Any kid can learn the basics of trading. If they want to trade, they learn how to do it safely. Don't spoon-feed them.

I mean, I know a lot of kids have short attention spans. I guarantee most people won't read my replies because they're long. Long threads, perhaps not something kids read. A well structured thread with long and short points would be great for everyone. Short points for reference, long points for learning. MCM can really make some change in the industry here. It's up to you guys whether you want to have a safe community or a community filled with trolls, kids and people that think half of the harassment and mess around here is funny.

Maturity isn't what I expect, but at least 10% of the logic of an adult is. Especially if you're going into trading as a kid. Sadly, a lot of adults bailed ship when Minecraft for Xbox came out and all the kids came storming in.[DOUBLEPOST=1451170639,1451170304][/DOUBLEPOST]nara~kavi By the way, when you tell me that you want to help kids here get scammed less, they rate a serious conversation as "funny". They clearly have no interest in protecting themselves as traders. This site is more trollers than traders, in fact. Perhaps it's because suggestions make this more of a general discussion site than a marketplace for traders. The real good ones are overlooked, nobody comments, rates or views them.

Stuff like a portfolio implementation (https://xenforo.com/community/media/) would be a great idea for a marketplace. Someone here suggested it, it was overlooked. Albums for portfolios, images uploaded to them... That's a feature for traders. That invites real traders. Making that happen is no problem. In fact, it's a no brainer! Was it even looked into, or replied to? Nope. I believe I was (and still am) the only one to reply to the idea.

Instead, people want to focus on useless, dramatic suggestions to make this a general discussion site. Honestly, I can't tell you what you want or don't want, but at the end of the day if this site can't do it, someone will start a site that can. General discussion sites don't last, sites with purpose do. It's up to the community & Mick to decide what they'd prefer.

We've had to make scam reports a few times but we've won all of them predominantly because of the fact that we choose our words very carefully in our deals and do all of our deals on a site where there are un-falsifiable records.

I agree with you on all of your points once again. I had never really considered that scam reports are just "training wheels" basically, and that the site could function perfectly well without them if the correct infrastructure was in place to support it. I just accepted that they were there when I joined this site and have studied them and learned from them and used them to my advantage. The majority of people here don't do that, obviously, so the usage of the scam reports section as a learning tool is largely limited.

This site was really my first online marketplace that I entered, and so all of this has been a learning experience for me. I didn't realize that other marketplaces operated so differently, or even that the types of functionality that you're talking about exist.

You have swayed me. I agree that if Mick were to implement the changes you've suggested, such as the marketplace add-on, the scam reports section could be removed without much issue.

I think you should make a separate suggestion thread for your marketplace add-on, as you are correct in saying the vast majority of people on this website will never read your posts in this thread, including staff.

 

[Overlord]

I agree with you on all of your points once again. I had never really considered that scam reports are just "training wheels" basically, and that the site could function perfectly well without them if the correct infrastructure was in place to support it. I just accepted that they were there when I joined this site and have studied them and learned from them and used them to my advantage. The majority of people here don't do that, obviously, so the usage of the scam reports section as a learning tool is largely limited.

I mean, what I agree with is some kind of protection against known scammers, but in the scam reports section I see scammers with 6 messages scamming with the same 'ol tactics. Clearly second, third, forth, fifth accounts. Take care of what you need to, but the best defence is logic. The FBI teach the same values, you learn the same stuff at school, in fact. I mean, the last time I was taught about staying safe I can't even remember, it was year 2 or something and it was about Internet safety. Knowledge is the best weapon a person has. Take that away, and you're left with violence or reliance. On the Internet, verbal violence doesn't do much which leaves you with reliance. Relying on a bunch of correctional officers.

This site was really my first online marketplace that I entered, and so all of this has been a learning experience for me. I didn't realize that other marketplaces operated so differently, or even that the types of functionality that you're talking about exist.

This marketplace is based off hack forums, it appears. It's not how any other online marketplace operates.

There are forums online that value homework services, by the way. I'm sure you could get paid more and decrease the chances of being scammed if you looked around. Plenty of people are busy or not sure, they could do with your help.

http://www.[Censored].net/forum/122-market-place/

This is a huge gaming marketplace with a similar community. They have listings of scammers, but they don't deal with reports as stupidly as the COs do here. They look for patterns and known scammers. If they vaguely see a name too many times, they take care of it. They do it in a way that doesn't warn or alert a user, prompting them to create a new account and continue scamming, instead making them want to leave forever. There are a few tactics to do so.

You have swayed me. I agree that if Mick were to implement the changes you've suggested, such as the marketplace add-on, the scam reports section could be removed without much issue.

I replied to a PM, and I don't think it'd be in his interest to implement any of my suggestions for a simple reason: they make this a Minecraft marketplace. He's in a dilemma just because of what Verringer left him with. Looking at the data, I'd say Verringer bailed ship at the right moment. He had some common sense and knew when to bail with all the money from Mick. Mick's left to clean up the mess. Not sure how he's going about doing it. He's trying to keep a good community, but at the end of the day what should be his main focus is profit. That's what motivates a person to work professionally, and not immaturely. He's got tough decisions to make, and I bet he's gonna need time to make them.

I'm not convinced many, if any, of my ideas will be implemented simply because a majority of users disagree with them. They prefer reliance. We have less control over the laws our government makes, we have more control over the future of a community. It's as simple as that. People here are dramatic. I'm sure if you add up all of the facts I've given here you see why Verringer really left, I can see it clearly. I think it's far from the reason he gave in his last announcement.

I think you should make a separate suggestion thread for your marketplace add-on, as you are correct in saying the vast majority of people on this website will never read your posts in this thread, including staff.

You can do it, if you like. I don't really have much interest in starting a suggestion I know is probably going to be overlooked, as with any decent suggestion that's posted here. Anything that makes this a Minecraft marketplace is a no-interest thing, even if it, in turn, fixes every problem and suggestion posted here. Reputation systems, scamming, organisation, trolling, correct implementation of it fixes so many problems, yet people would rather replicate hack forums' system, which worked out very well for them (sarcasm intended). It's awful... The owner himself dislikes it, but he can't do much about it. At the end of the day, he makes money, his family live a decent life, he works from home. He's pretty happy, but I bet he hates his job.

You have more community influence, if you wish, post a thread and see where it goes. Hopefully, with any luck, it'll go through.

 

[SoldierAlex]

I completely agree with this thread as I was one of the first people to actually think of it and I have told Verringer in the past. This system is very good. And as for Nara's concern of getting spammed, they could just make it so only the last post notification gets sent to you. Kind of like a thread.

 

[Overlord]

I didn't read all of the messages, just because my eyes hurt right now after medication for my allergies. If someone has said this before, sorry about it.

Perhaps we could have a system like HF, in which you have to surpass a certain threshold of requirements in order to create a thread selling something. This could relate to PayPal's "verification" system. For example, you have to submit of portfolio of builds and proof of builds onto a special thread if you wanted to sell builds (saw the portfolio thing from Overlord) and staff have to accept it. I know Spigot has to approve of threads that sell services, and they have a huge community compared to their staff list, so don't tell me "oh our staff is incapable of approving all of these". Simply recruit a couple more staff members dedicated just to this job, I'm sure it's not hard to find a couple within our community that are competent enough.

As for buyers, buyer always goes first. That's my golden rule, since most transactions is in PP and it is far too easy to steal back the money for a buyer than it is for a seller to retrieve back whatever he had. (Obviously exceptions for uber reputable members, etc.)

Obviously this system is flawed, just like any other. Just putting my 2 cents in.

The first part of this that is flawed is that a buyer does go first.

On eBay you don't say "hey, send the item first, then I'll send the money" or when buying a Mac from Apple "hey, send me the Mac please, then I'll send you the £1500" - buyer pays, seller completes the task. Same goes for services, but for services there may be an advance payment instead of a full payment, breaking it into steps. Less for scamming, and more to make sure the seller is motivated to do the task properly and on time. If fully paid, they have less motivation.

Personally, I believe in what the standard society believes in. Society is messed up, but they sure got a lot of things right. One of them is business and how sales of goods and services works.

What all of you are suggesting is stupid for one reason, you want the site to increase liability so you don't need to increase common sense.

It's not about incapability, it's about whether it's worth the time, and quite frankly over moderation isn't.

When you can read the replies, read them, then get back to me. I'm sure it enhances logic.

 

[Overlord]

Obviously this would apply to the real world, as eBay is a multi-billion dollar corporation that has support for both the buyer and seller, as it ships physical items which can be tracked.

Same logic applies to any marketplace, and eBay does allow sales of virtual items too, I believe, under certain conditions. PayPal also supports virtual items now, as well. They added support for them with the update when they moved the chargeback window from 30-60 days to 180 days. I mean, logic dictates, pay first, receive good... Nothing illogical about that.

1) 12-year old that are willing to scam for $20 worth in virtual items (yes, I have experience with this)

I don't find it hard to believe. People here spend hours of their time for $2... Anyway, rather than MCM stepping into more deals, could use the suggestion I posted in my other thread.

2) Virtual items that can be scammed easily, i.e. Steam items that you can't get back due to the lack of support

Well, Steam can't verify sales and with the amount of scamming on CSGO, for example, it'd be very hard to do so.

3) when you're dealing with such a volatile money holder (PayPal), buyer should go first.

I think you just... said what I said? The buyer goes first, by logic.

Your argument is ultimately flawed because you assume we're dealing in physical items which are easy to find evidence of shipment, thus being able to when chargebacks against you easier, whereas with virtual goods it is much harder to get your "money" back because it is so easy to manipulate PayPal around virtual items.

It's easy to manipulate PayPal around physical items, with the argument of unauthorised. I don't know what your point is here. PayPal is easy to manipulate? Yeah, I've known that one. Depends entirely on the agent you're talking to, but with PayPal's logic I'm surprised they're the top payment processor. My argument was simply "buyer pays, seller gives" which is how the world works. Regardless of physical or virtual items. If there's a problem with trust in an unmanned deal, they may choose a different organisation to conduct the deal, and there's always the option of using an escrow. Tons of escrow services out there.

 

[Overlord]

I think we literally just argued the same point. I'm stupid, sorry. This is what I said:

Apparently I missed that part too, lol.

 

[Blade]

The reason people love skype is because it is widely available on many platforms, many people like myself don't like using a mobile browser on their devices - they prefer a reliable desktop-style browsing experience, so if IM were to be introduced into MCM, some users would have a difficult time on mobile devices, but it is still a good idea

 

[Mick]

There are many different pre-made add-ons we can use for this, all with different capabilities and function.

If we're looking for a facebook like chat, CometChat or ArrowChat could be used.
If we want something that just makes conversation messages instant, we can use Realtime Chat Conversations.
If we want for Mick to be brutally murdered by you, we can change back from Taigachat to the other shoutbox we were using which has the ability to create private rooms (my personal favourite idea)
If we want something custom there could be a brand new system developed from the ground up.

It's up to you how we do this.

 

[SoldierAlex]

There are many different pre-made add-ons we can use for this, all with different capabilities and function.

If we're looking for a facebook like chat, CometChat or ArrowChat could be used.
If we want something that just makes conversation messages instant, we can use Realtime Chat Conversations.
If we want for Mick to be brutally murdered by you, we can change back from Taigachat to the other shoutbox we were using which has the ability to create private rooms (my personal favourite idea)
If we want something custom there could be a brand new system developed from the ground up.

It's up to you how we do this.

We just need something that works. TBH I like the 2 the best. The 3rd one, I don't exactly like it but I guess it would work. The second is the best though because it's all we need.