The truth about inconsistent and biased punishments on MC-Market.

[wizard-chan]

suggestion for equal warning points: https://www.mc-market.org/threads/605329/

Before this post starts, I'll summarise it into the following:

TL;DR, (some) instances of inconsistent punishments have led to outrage of various members in the community. The main discussion point in this will be through the repeated suspension of 120275 for "NSFW Content", which was revoked both times on the grounds of it being too minor to be deserving of warning points.
This is a vague summary and doesn't reflect the entire situation, it's recommended you read the thread as it's hard to put into a single paragraph.

--- To the main content section of the thread ---

Firstly, the main topic of discussion. There are others, I will include them later.

Both situations with Cam happened in a similar way, so I'll just speak about the most recent one.

The original crime:
Cam said the term "minecraft condoms" in a joke fashion in chat. This resulted in a 10wp warning for NSFW content & a 2 week suspension, (only 3 days past before this was reversed). Some may argue that this content was NSFW content, that is correct. However the main argument from this is the bias a certain staff member has towards certain members, the staff member will remain un-named as to not direct hate.

Why is this biased?
I consider this biased as many other users said the same term or worse, on the same day (before & after the warning was issued) whilst discussing the suspension.

http://screenshots.cam/i/NRceB9Ya.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/33LyvztM.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/wI5aCEs4.png

http://screenshots.cam/i/kkrCShBW.png

This was before the original punishment was overturned, so the staff member that originally punished Cam would have been resolved to do the same for all of the above cases, with the same phrasing being used. (Yes I am among those screenshots, mainly advocating for the wrongful punishment)

Other cases of unproportionate punishments:

Arh, recently was paraphrasing a video (made by someone else, this was the fake awards ceremony for Katy Hopkins)

Screenshots provided below:
http://screenshots.cam/i/XnDINdSY.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/yYgjgSw8.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/RKCRjnde.png

User was banned from SB for inciting hate and harassment, however was simply laughing at a video which has been out in the public media for many years now. This should not be a offence punishable by this warning, as the figure is a public figure who's branding is built from general hatred, and as said before the user was quoting the video, not making the comment themselves.

I'm sure there are various other examples of inconsistent/unwarranted punishments. Most of the suggested punishments have been happening quite recently, however I am sure it's an ongoing issue. I have put in a few hours of research for this thread obtaining screenshots and the likes, if anything is inaccurate or inconsistent or if there's any other examples of unwarranted punishments happening continuously, reply or hit me up in PMs - I can have it added.

This post was originally made out of my outrage for a specific user's overruled punishment, however I've found it to be an underlying issue on many fronts. I will gladly edit/change sections if they're inaccurate or slanderous, the screenshots of this are intended only to educate, not to incite hatred or break the rules myself, these are not my words, but the words of others.

 

[wizard-chan]

I am not suggesting a fix to the problem, I'm simply making a statement that the problem is there.

 

[Ghast]

These threads always appear when there’s something to debate. This isn’t the US elections, freedom of speech does not exist on here. Moderators make the rules and that’s how it is.

 

[xtradehg]

mcm staff is like the staff you will find in a small Minecraft no premium server.

 

[Ally]

Inconsistencies occur when multiple individual people do a similar or same job collectively. Usually it's more subtle inconsistencies but in this case it's kind of not... I'd say? But at the same time it is. I like to think it's an inherent flaw in the system especially since it's incredibly difficult to enforce all rules here systematically. Most of the rules are extensions of common sense and so can be subjective in certain cases. I think the revoking of the punishment is just a sign that the staff members do work together for tricky decisions like that.

What still remains true is that kicking up a stink without creating a viable suggestion for improvement does nothing. Truth or not, this thread does not serve a strictly constructive purpose.

1. Cam pointed it out himself- he's been warned for NSFW content in the past.
2. Different staff have relatively different thresholds for different warnings - but should be close to the same.

Another thing I find to be weird is that rampant jokes and "edating/flirting" can go on in shoutbox but when one of us wants to debate a political/societal topic all hell breaks loose as the entire community rises from the depths of hell because they can't handle different opinions and mature discussions. Lol.

Just going from personal experience- when people have debates in shoutbox, it renders the place practically unusable because of the constant convo spam. Also, it usually descends into chaos of its own accord

 

[wizard-chan]

also resources you idiot you said you won't name the staff member but they're in the SS

I saw nothing. This was not intentional.

 

[Ally]

if you don't like it it is not convo spam. it is a topic you dislike, it's not spam.

What? No I'm just saying every time there's a discussion like that it makes talking to other people in the shoutbox a real pain.

and our debates/discussions almost never descend into chaos.

Look I'm going on entirely anecdotal evidence here, but the times I've seen shoutbox political debates happen it's turned nasty and someone always winds up insulting the other person :/

we are trying to get everyone's opinions and raise public awareness to a long-standing issue.

Yeah but what does it do? BLM protests for example -- good, because police defunding is a viable course of action or whatever. But this? I don't see what raising public awareness would achieve.

but i'm willing to bet that mods will lock this thread for not being constructive when we clearly ar

Why are you so quick to jump the gun "bet that mods will lock this thread"? Not being constructive isn't a rule.

not all constructivity means we need to provide solutions immediately or ban.

Never implied that. I just cannot fathom what you what to do here :/

 

[Zalbus]

Before this post starts, I'll summarise it into the following:

TL;DR, (some) instances of inconsistent punishments have led to outrage of various members in the community. The main discussion point in this will be through the repeated suspension of 120275 for "NSFW Content", which was revoked both times on the grounds of it being too minor to be deserving of warning points.
This is a vague summary and doesn't reflect the entire situation, it's recommended you read the thread as it's hard to put into a single paragraph.

--- To the main content section of the thread ---

Firstly, the main topic of discussion. There are others, I will include them later.

Both situations with Cam happened in a similar way, so I'll just speak about the most recent one.

The original crime:
Cam said the term "minecraft condoms" in a joke fashion in chat. This resulted in a 10wp warning for NSFW content & a 2 week suspension, (only 3 days past before this was reversed). Some may argue that this content was NSFW content, that is correct. However the main argument from this is the bias a certain staff member has towards certain members, the staff member will remain un-named as to not direct hate.

Why is this biased?
I consider this biased as many other users said the same term or worse, on the same day (before & after the warning was issued) whilst discussing the suspension.

http://screenshots.cam/i/NRceB9Ya.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/33LyvztM.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/wI5aCEs4.png

http://screenshots.cam/i/kkrCShBW.png

This was before the original punishment was overturned, so the staff member that originally punished Cam would have been resolved to do the same for all of the above cases, with the same phrasing being used. (Yes I am among those screenshots, mainly advocating for the wrongful punishment)

Other cases of unproportionate punishments:

Arh, recently was paraphrasing a video (made by someone else, this was the fake awards ceremony for Katy Hopkins)

Screenshots provided below:
http://screenshots.cam/i/XnDINdSY.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/yYgjgSw8.png
http://screenshots.cam/i/RKCRjnde.png

User was banned from SB for inciting hate and harassment, however was simply laughing at a video which has been out in the public media for many years now. This should not be a offence punishable by this warning, as the figure is a public figure who's branding is built from general hatred, and as said before the user was quoting the video, not making the comment themselves.

I'm sure there are various other examples of inconsistent/unwarranted punishments. Most of the suggested punishments have been happening quite recently, however I am sure it's an ongoing issue. I have put in a few hours of research for this thread obtaining screenshots and the likes, if anything is inaccurate or inconsistent or if there's any other examples of unwarranted punishments happening continuously, reply or hit me up in PMs - I can have it added.

This post was originally made out of my outrage for a specific user's overruled punishment, however I've found it to be an underlying issue on many fronts. I will gladly edit/change sections if they're inaccurate or slanderous, the screenshots of this are intended only to educate, not to incite hatred or break the rules myself, these are not my words, but the words of others.

The only change here I could see is that warning points should be the same for everyone and not based on staff. Example let's say micro-posting was 2 warning points (not sure the actual amount) Then first offence is 2, second is 5, third is 7 (random numbers) The amount should be set across the board for everyone. This is just my opinion.

 

[wizard-chan]

The only change here I could see is that warning points should be the same for everyone and not based on staff. Example let's say micro-posting was 2 warning points (not sure the actual amount) Then first offence is 2, second is 5, third is 7 (random numbers) The amount should be set across the board for everyone. This is just my opinion.

That's great, I don't believe rules should be in-place systematically (the leeway staff provide currently is great), however I think that some kind of precedent should be set and some consistency for punishments which happen during the same event should be introduced.

 

[Zalbus]

That's great, I don't believe rules should be in-place systematically (the leeway staff provide currently is great), however I think that some kind of precedent should be set and some consistency for punishments which happen during the same event should be introduced.

To make it easier for everyone:

https://www.mc-market.org/threads/605329/

 

[wizard-chan]

To make it easier for everyone:

https://www.mc-market.org/threads/605329/

Added to main thread, while not directly related it's a good idea.

 

[Squiggles]

But why not just dm the people in chatbox in discord instead of putting messages in view for the forums to see?

 

[wizard-chan]

But why not just dm the people in chatbox in discord instead of putting messages in view for the forums to see?

They're still subject to the rules, and the issues stated in the thread.
And it kind of defeats the point of having a public chatbox.

 

[wizard-chan]

i guess. that can't be prevented though.


never seen that happen with me, anyone who gets too insulting or hurtful is generally thrown out of the discussion.


i meant that we're raising awareness to the punishments system.


because mods are quite quick to jump the gun on punishing people, i guess?


we want to raise awareness as i stated above.

Please note ally, none of these are directed specifically to you and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. They are meant to the general public, and we've already discussed this together and you seemed to be ok with my viewpoint so I'm not attacking/calling you out here. There are other members who I would rather not name who are often either argumentative or attacking when debates begin just for the reason that we're having debates.

Kram did say he was considering locking the thread when we were in a call, I stated I'd remove it if it got out of hand. He kind of agreed since there was nothing against the rules in the thread particularly.

 

[Remnicore]

My situation was “handled” already, but there was a point where Ellie was going through posts of mine that were months and months old that she found “objectionable”. She kept trying to find isolated instances that could result in 10 warning points each would could get me suspended, and eventually it would have gotten me banned for excessive violation of the rules.

In the end she stopped pestering me in PM’s (which her replies took maybe 3 weeks each, not sure how she’s still staff based on her activity) and told me that if I ever sold giftcards on here, I needed to provide proof that they were legitimate or else I’d receive warning points...

But again, this is MCM. This whole place is a joke. We shouldn’t take anything that happens here seriously.

 

[wizard-chan]

My situation was “handled” already, but there was a point where Ellie was going through posts of mine that were months and months old that she found “objectionable”. She kept trying to find isolated instances that could result in 10 warning points each would could get me suspended, and eventually it would have gotten me banned for excessive violation of the rules.

In the end she stopped pestering me in PM’s (which her replies took maybe 3 weeks each, not sure how she’s still staff based on her activity) and told me that if I ever sold giftcards on here, I needed to provide proof that they were legitimate or else I’d receive warning points...

But again, this is MCM. This whole place is a joke. We shouldn’t take anything that happens here seriously.

The giftcards thing was mainly to ensure that they weren't carded I'm sure. Most sold giftcards on here are unfortunately. I was looking back on it and found another moderator doing a similar thing to people before she resigned. (no names)