Unban the sale and purchase of Discord Server Boosts

120275

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The most recent post in the Announcements forum made by Mick announces that Discord Nitro sales and Discord Nitro Boost sales will now be banned due to "excessive scamming". While there is merit to the ban in favour of reducing the number of users that will get scammed, here is a quick review based on my opinions of the ban:

1. The post says that the sections were removed due to "excessive scamming". A quick review of the first 5 pages of the Scam Reports Archive, and the Scam Reports section (which should not be counted, because unless the user has actually scammed out; it can't be counted as a scam) - more Scam Reports were made by users on reputable users for development services and configuration services than any product, let alone Discord Boosts & Nitro codes. A closer look into the Scam Reports of those users reveals that the majority (excluding one high-profile ban) were new users, who are predisposed to scam out anyway - a higher majority of the Banned Users in the Scam Reports Archive is made up of newer users - and due to the low-cost, easy-transaction nature of products in the Gift Codes & Licenses section, newer users (who are often ban evaders) find it easy to scam out. This is not only the case for Discord Boosts/Nitros, and I will address this later.

2. The argument for Discord Boosts being blackhat/greyhat has little merit now in the wake of the Epic Games offer. There is a perfectly legal way to obtain Nitro codes and Boosts without needing to card, perform identity theft, or any other illegal activity now, and the argument would have had more merit a month earlier or 4 months later (when the offer and codes expire fully). A ban is only hurting the community from purchasing perfectly legitimate services. If staff really does believe there is a need for a review of the methods used to purchase these boosts, then they can do so (I believe they have done this in the past?).

3. The greater argument to be made is the high-risk for buyers in the Gifts & Licenses section along with the Other Products session - which is a perfectly reasonable and valid argument. However, banning boosts sets a dangerous precedent as soon the section will be completely phased out of use because of "excessive scamming". Newer users are far more likely to scam in this section than a more established user is - high-value scams by established users happen in Services or the Currency Conversion sections but that isn't the point here.

The recent offers are an easy way for people to make profit if they know what they're doing and that profit finds its way back into the MCM community and also as revenue for MC-M - several legitimate sellers (myself included) can make legitimate profits from this. Banning sections like this arbitrarily only hurts the community rather than protecting it from scams since they will occur offsite in any case.

Another thing to note is that the decision was (reportedly) unilateral by Mick and staff did not get much of a say (according to a discussion I had with Geek in shoutbox). While this in itself may not be a bad thing, it does bring up the issue that the community is not well-represented by the staff. We were also not informed of this decision the way we were for the Investments and Loans forum.

SOLUTIONS:
Every good suggestion has a solution: here are mine.

1. Unban Discord Nitro and Boost Selling.
2. Increase the requirements to post in the Gift Codes & Licenses and the Other Products forum due to their high-risk nature by newer users. Reputation requirements and message requirements are a good start. Scams will reduce dramatically.
3. Allow staff to perform reviews on members who they suspect of illegitimate activity. A private conversation with Ally revealed a good point that most of the Nitro community treats their business models very carefully (though this is due to the nature that people steal ideas quickly and there is no protection against that here) and I assume Nitro sellers and Boost sellers would be more than happy to reveal their (legitimate) methods to staff under guarantee they won't be resold.



TLDR:
1. banned for excessive scamming but increase of requirements will make sure new users can't scam out easily and leave way for trusted sellers (who are less predisposed to scam)
2. no longer blackhat and greyhat due to recent epic games offers and staff can verify those who seem suspicious
3. community sentiment was not taken into hand

I will defend my opinions.
 
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Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)
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What do you suggest a solution for a reputable user that then scams in that area? It’s happened.
 

120275

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What do you suggest a solution for a reputable user that then scams in that area? It’s happened.
I read your report on RageX, and my heart goes out to you for what happened - I hope he did refund you and if not I'll see if I can get in contact with him to do so.

As far as your comment goes:
1. Boosts and Nitros are most lucrative for newer users because they have nothing to lose if they scam out for about $25-50, which is why most of the Nitro & Boost scams are in low amounts. For a reputable user who has probably spent that amount on the site itself, Currency Conversion and I&L (which was removed) are far more lucrative avenues to scam out - a reputable user has very little incentive to scam out for measly profits in the Boost sector and even if they do, the rate will be low - moving on to my next point:

2. The rate of reputable users scamming in Product sections are far lower than the rate of reputable users scamming in Service sections. This is because there is far less revenue to be made in Products for individual purchases (for example if I have 50 rep, scamming out on a $1k cryptocurrency deal which is a service is far more lucrative than scamming out on a $50 nitro deal. The reason why Nitros are profitable is by scale - there are far more deals in the Nitro sector than in crypto dealings, but since scams are judged on individual deals, it's very stupid to scam out on a Product dealing).

3. Establishing that reputable users scam out on Services more, the problem of reputable users scamming is a completely different topic - and the rate of reputable users scamming out on Nitro & Boost dealings is far lower (at the worst, equal to) the rate of reputable users scamming out on other services - which makes it difficult to justify banning one section alone, rather than all of them at once.
 
Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

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Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

120275

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ok ok everybody gather around and let me tell you a story...
so about 1 year ago I was a little boy looking for nitro since my dad said no and had $100 in my PayPal.
I found a cheap seller named "Ayme" and sent him $10 for some nitro. it worked and after 4 months (the amount I bought it), I bought it from him again but this time for 2 years, I sent him the $80, and 1 day later he banned me from his discord and blocked me. so yeah.
First off, anecdotal evidence in a logical argument.

Secondly,


1. Deal was made offsite, neither you nor "Ayme" had an MCM account made at that time
2. Deal was done without middleman or pretty much any preventaive measures
3. It's not related to MCM in any way because you got scammed by someone who did not have an MCM account and neither did you.
4. It provides no conclusive argument against what I have said above - in fact, it supports my measure to increase requirements for the section to prevent new "Ayme"s from scamming out.
 
Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

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You have made fantastic points, but I don't think upping the requirements would be fair for some people who are trying to sell Gift Codes & Licenses, and Other Products that aren't Discord related services, and would the staff be performing these checks on users who only sell Discord related services or would it relate to any service?

I assume Nitro sellers and Boost sellers would be more than happy to reveal their (legitimate) methods to staff under guarantee they won't be resold.
Unless that user has got a patent on their method, I believe anyone is allowed to take their idea to remake as their own, correct me if MC-Market has a rule against that though.

I think consumers need to be more careful of whom they deal with and make sure that the seller has some reputation and vouches for themself instead of jumping into a deal and getting themselves scammed cause they didn't do their research on the seller.
I don't think Discord Nitro sales and Discord Nitro Boost sales needed to be banned, it's just people can't take the time to do research on a user to determine whether or not they have scammy intents. People are too desperate for a service like this and are blind to the risk(s).
 

120275

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You have made fantastic points, but I don't think upping the requirements would be fair for some people who are trying to sell Gift Codes & Licenses, and Other Products that aren't Discord related services, and would the staff be performing these checks on users who only sell Discord related services or would it relate to any service?


Unless that user has got a patent on their method, I believe anyone is allowed to take their idea to remake as their own, correct me if MC-Market has a rule against that though.

I think consumers need to be more careful of whom they deal with and make sure that the seller has some reputation and vouches for themself instead of jumping into a deal and getting themselves scammed cause they didn't do their research on the seller.
I don't think Discord Nitro sales and Discord Nitro Boost sales needed to be banned, it's just people can't take the time to do research on a user to determine whether or not they have scammy intents. People are too desperate for a service like this and are blind to the risk(s).

You have made fantastic points, but I don't think upping the requirements would be fair for some people who are trying to sell Gift Codes & Licenses, and Other Products that aren't Discord related services, and would the staff be performing these checks on users who only sell Discord related services or would it relate to any service?

If we go with that logic then requirements should be disabled for every section. MCM has set the precedent of using requirements to combat the risk of scams, and it seems to have worked based on feedback from users who have been using the site before these requirements - it's a pragmatic and logical solution to an evident problem of new users and ban evaders. I'm only asking to make the requirements just high enough to discourage users looking to scam.

And about products which are not Discord-related services, the entirety of the Gift Codes & Licenses and Other Products forums are filled with products that are low-effort to sell and high-risk for buyers since it's not exactly a service that can be sold 50% upfront and 50% after. This measure would decrease scams by new users as well. It may not be fair for legitimate new users, but every market has its barriers of entry - including several competitor sites - and the ability for these users to scam on here is much higher than competitor sites.

As far as staff checks go, I'm okay with them making checks on any service, provided it doesn't cause a holdup on other services which is a problem we are going through right now - but kudos to the staff team, they seem to be reducing that problem as the days go by.

Unless that user has got a patent on their method, I believe anyone is allowed to take their idea to remake as their own, correct me if MC-Market has a rule against that though.

Yeah, I was making that point as well. The difference is staff can issue warning points to users who do not share their method with staff, so based on that unfair advantage in the market they should be prevented from making money off methods which they obtained using staff power from members.

I think consumers need to be more careful of whom they deal with and make sure that the seller has some reputation and vouches for themself instead of jumping into a deal and getting themselves scammed cause they didn't do their research on the seller.
I don't think Discord Nitro sales and Discord Nitro Boost sales needed to be banned, it's just people can't take the time to do research on a user to determine whether or not they have scammy intents. People are too desperate for a service like this and are blind to the risk(s).

True, but that's a consumer issue and not the point of this thread. MCM can only do so much to protect consumers from themselves and a better way is educational activity on the forums and awareness such as the disclaimers (which are very useful, btw) - rather than outright bans which harm the community, consumers and sellers.
 
Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

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Great points made on this thread. I had a question, though.

For this suggestion, would staff be checking each thread posted to the forum, or simply the ones who look sketchy or out of place? I also think a big problem with the Nitro/Gift Code area is the use of carded nitro, so verifying the seller's legitimate methods would be very important to ensure a scam with illegitimate nitro doesn't occur.
Otherwise, great idea, and I hope to see MCM reconsider on their change.
Checking each thread posted to the forum is an addition to the staff's workload and while it would definitely reduce scams on MCM, considering that activities like tickets and scam reports take so long anyway (though they are becoming better!) it's impractical to suggest that they check every thread.

That being said, the number of threads that will enter the forum also reduces since requirements increase, discouraging scammers and newer users who are only looking to employ illegal methods to make a quick buck.

Verification can be done if the product grows big enough that it really does warrant individual attention, or if staff have genuine concerns that it is illegal/illegitimate. I make no assumptions on the time that staff have to spend on each verification, but I assume a ticket or conversation can be opened and the user will provide the information that staff require (which is already being done!).
 
Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

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Another thing to note is that the decision was (reportedly) unilateral by Mick and staff did not get much of a say (according to a discussion I had with Geek in shoutbox). While this in itself may not be a bad thing, it does bring up the issue that the community is not well-represented by the staff. We were also not informed of this decision the way we were for the Investments and Loans forum.
I'd like to clarify this as I feel that this isn't an accurate depiction of what happened. We of course had a say in it, however, the majority of the team was for the removal of the section regardless. The topic was given to us by management, however, there were already internal discussions between non-management staff about removing the section before management wanted input regarding it.
 

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I'd like to clarify this as I feel that this isn't an accurate depiction of what happened. We of course had a say in it, however, the majority of the team was for the removal of the section regardless. The topic was given to us by management, however, there were already internal discussions between non-management staff about removing the section before management wanted input regarding it.
My apologies, I misunderstood what you posted. What is the distinction between management and non-management staff then? The issue of staff & management representing the community is a topic for a different day and a different thread, so I won't bring this up here but thanks for your input.
 
Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

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My apologies, I misunderstood what you posted. What is the distinction between management and non-management staff then? The issue of staff & management representing the community is a topic for a different day and a different thread, so I won't bring this up here but thanks for your input.
Management = Lead-Mod+
Non-Mangement = Everyone else

I'd also point out that we were and still are community members and still engage with the community outside of our staffing responsibilities. We hear your concerns and try to take them into account. We also see a large amount of Nitro/boost threads that are reported for scamming with proof, however we cannot issue a ban right then and there. The reporter is instructed to make a scam report, however many fail to follow through with such actions. This diminishes the number of scams that you see due to a report not being visible.
 
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Management = Lead-Mod+
Non-Mangement = Everyone else

I'd also point out that we were and still are community members and still engage with the community outside of our staffing responsibilities. We hear your concerns and try to take them into account. We also see a large amount of Nitro/boost threads that are reported for scamming with proof, however we cannot issue a ban right then and there. The reporter is instructed to make a scam report, however many fail to follow through with such actions. This diminishes the number of scams that you see due to a report not being visible.
Didn't see your edit.

I'd also point out that we were and still are community members and still engage with the community outside of our staffing responsibilities. We hear your concerns and try to take them into account.

Some may disagree, but as I said earlier that topic is a completely different issue not for this thread.

We also see a large amount of Nitro/boost threads that are reported for scamming with proof, however we cannot issue a ban right then and there. The reporter is instructed to make a scam report, however many fail to follow through with such actions. This diminishes the number of scams that you see due to a report not being visible.

If I recall correctly, 5.4 and its subdivisions were changed to a permanent ban, and scamming falls under 5.4 (selling what they do not own).

And this doesn't change my point earlier where I mentioned a majority of these threads are by new users who are most likely ban evading or creating temp scam accounts, and I have also given a solution for the same.

Reporters fail to make scam reports because the users who scammed them are new. If I got scammed by a 2-message, 0-rep account, I wouldn't bother to make a scam report either because I know it changes nothing as the user who scammed is only temporarily using that account for the purpose of making an illegitimate quick buck. With that established, the solutions I have put forth on this thread will dramatically reduce such scams.

You can see proof of this in the Scam Report forums. A higher number of reports are made on high-rep users because there is actually something useful to be gained by making a report.
 
Banned forever. Reason: Scamming (https://builtbybit.com/threads/cam-v-bugless-transaction-dispute.671198/)

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very good points, i hope MCM unbans this
 
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