Don't allow the pre-ordering of a resource

[joeleoli]

Don't allow the pre-ordering of a resource
I think sellers should not be allowed to advertise or sell "pre-orders" of a product.

Reasoning

• This exposes the possibility of scamming if the product is never finished.
• Anybody can make a nice looking thread saying they're planning to sell a product. If the product was a scam the whole time, or is never finished, all of those people just got scammed. Sure, the seller will get banned, but it's a fucking ban, it doesn't really matter. He could come back and do it again. Protect the users from that, and ban "pre-ordering".

Examples

• Pre-order a product and not receive the full product or compensation.

Exceptions

• Loans would not fall under this rule. See below why.

What if pre-order funds are motivation to continue the project?

• Then give the product as is and distribute updates when needed. Too complicated to keep track of who needs an update? This is what the resource system is for.

Clarification on "resource":

• Any product being advertised in the resource system.
• Any product being advertised in thread, shout box, or private messages.

Thanks. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Devon]

SavageSniper.exe

 

[Justis]

While I do agree, this could reduce scams, so could forbidding any transaction which is not a resource purchase, or removing the market completely.
Preorders, though I've never been involved in one, is as much of a valid transaction as any. A product, a mutual promise, and a payment; all involved.
Because they involve more people than just a single person, more cash can be put on the line, such as with loans and transactions, however, this is not a reason to forbid them.

Users can protect themselves and choose not to purchase pre-orders, and instead wait for the resource to come out, if that's what they want to do; and we can encourage that users take the most precautious steps in their transactions, however, ultimately, that should be left up to the individual potential buyers of each individual offer.

 

[joeleoli]

While I do agree, this could reduce scams, so could forbidding any transaction which is not a resource purchase, or removing the market completely.
Preorders, though I've never been involved in one is as much of a valid transaction as any. A product, a mutual promise, and a payment; all involved.
Because they involve more people than just a single person, more cash can be put on the line, such as with loans and transactions, however, this is not a reason to forbid them.

Users can protect themselves and choose not to purchase pre-orders, and instead wait for the resource to come out, if that's what they want to do; and we can encourage that users take the most precautious steps in their transactions, however, ultimately, that should be left up to the individual potential buyers of each individual offer.

In my book, it's not a valid transaction because you're paying for a promise (non physical [or digital]), not a good (product). This is the internet, promises can and will be broken. It literally just exposes the possibility of scamming. Nothing good comes out of it (edit: except for motivation).

 

[Fle]

I completely agree in the context of it never being finished, I've seen it happen.
I think pre-orders should not be allowed.

 

[Ivain]

Honestly, I would think people on here would have the suspicion to not preorder stuff.
I mean, come ON. You can't even trust multinational game companies with pre-orders, what makes you think you can trust some rando on the internet?
I think forbidding this would achieve nothing. People stupid enough to pay for an untrustworthy thing like this would get themselves scammed some other way, and it could affect more legit things as well.
If we forbid this, we might as well kick out loans&investments, since those are based on similar promises.

 

[FireFliesMC]

I think pre-ordering should be allowed, only if the pre-order price is the same as the normal price.

If a pre-order price is lower than the normal price, it's a lose-lose situation for you:
1. Either you take the risk, be dumb and pay cheaper with a high probability of getting scammed. YOU LOSE
2. Either you play it safe and wait for reviews of the released product, but it won't be in your price range at the normal price, forcing you to pre-order, going back to the 1st point. YOU LOSE

Whereas if the pre-order price is the same as the normal price, it's a win-lose situation:
1. Either you take the risk, be dumb and pre-order with a high probability of getting scammed. YOU LOSE
2. Either you play it safe and wait for reviews of the released product, which you then can decide to purchase. YOU WIN

 

[joeleoli]

Honestly, I would think people on here would have the suspicion to not preorder stuff.
I mean, come ON. You can't even trust multinational game companies with pre-orders, what makes you think you can trust some rando on the internet?
I think forbidding this would achieve nothing. People stupid enough to pay for an untrustworthy thing like this would get themselves scammed some other way, and it could affect more legit things as well.
If we forbid this, we might as well kick out loans&investments, since those are based on similar promises.

I clarified "resource". Loans would not fall under this rule if implemented. I agree, people should never "pre-order" a product because it could end badly, but why allow it to happen in the first place?

 

[Ivain]

I clarified "resource". Loans would not fall under this rule if implemented. I agree, people should never "pre-order" a product because it could end badly, but why allow it to happen in the first place?

You didnt read more than superficially, did you?
If we forbid people from offering preorders on the premise that it's a promise that likely will never be fulfilled, then we should disallow investments, and probably loans as well. Since they are based on the exact same premise.
Basically a pre-order is a loan to the person developing the product, on the promise that you get the product early as return, and possibly with a little extra depending on the specific case.

 

[joeleoli]

You didnt read more than superficially, did you?
If we forbid people from offering preorders on the premise that it's a promise that likely will never be fulfilled, then we should disallow investments, and probably loans as well. Since they are based on the exact same premise.
Basically a pre-order is a loan to the person developing the product, on the promise that you get the product early as return, and possibly with a little extra depending on the specific case.

To me there are differences between a loan and a pre-order of a product even if based on the same premise.
If somebody receives a loan, they are most likely going to put that money towards trying to make more money so they can re-pay their debt to the investor, and to hopefully keep a profit. If somebody is selling pre-orders of their product, the funds are a symbol of motivation to finish the product. They don't have to sell pre-orders, they could wait until their product is finished and then sell it.

tl;dr
Loans are usually needed, where as pre-orders are usually optional.

 

[Ivain]

Preorders are based on the concept that you need money to complete a product. Therefore, people buy the product before its done, allowing you to complete it. Same premise. They NEED the money. Sure, its used for scams. But apart from accounts, a lot of the most extreme scams are done with loans. Yet I've never seen a single pre-order scam end up in the scam reports. Have you?
So why is it THAT important to forbid preordering, while loan scams are a far bigger problem? Is this suggestion based solely on your personal experiences?

 

[joeleoli]

Preorders are based on the concept that you need money to complete a product. Therefore, people buy the product before its done, allowing you to complete it. Same premise. They NEED the money. Sure, its used for scams. But apart from accounts, a lot of the most extreme scams are done with loans. Yet I've never seen a single pre-order scam end up in the scam reports. Have you?
So why is it THAT important to forbid preordering, while loan scams are a far bigger problem? Is this suggestion based solely on your personal experiences?

That's completely wrong... Pre-order's are not based on the concept that you NEED money to complete a product... They might WANT it as motivation, but they do not NEED it. I've seen several pre-order threads end up in the scam reports. The "Solent Anti-Cheat" for example.

Also, I've not had any personal experience with pre-orders for this exact reason.

Loan = Usually a NEED
Pre-order = Usually a WANT

 

[Ivain]

That's completely wrong... Pre-order's are not based on the concept that you NEED money to complete a product... They might WANT it as motivation, but they do not NEED it. I've seen several pre-order threads end up in the scam reports. The "Solent Anti-Cheat" for example.

Also, I've not had any personal experience with pre-orders for this exact reason.

Loan = Usually a NEED
Pre-order = Usually a WANT

Tell that to a lot of the triple A companies doing it. Trust me, its not just about WANTING more money. Some of them (not counting EA, who are confirmed moneywhores) actually need it. Why? Because the money required to produce tech-breaking Triple A games is constantly rising, yet people demand the prices remain at $60 or so and often refuse to buy anything more expensive than that unless they get more.

Anyway, enough off-topic. Let's try another comparison. Let's say someone ordered a specific creation, but cannot afford for it to be completely exclusive, so they give permission to sell it nonexclusively for the same price they pay. The only difference between that and a pre-order would be that it's to the specifications of the customer instead of something in the mind of the seller. However, the potential for disappointment is the same.


And lastly, if you have 0 experience with pre-order scams and the likes, what are you even basing this suggestion on? i've never seen anyone do anything like a pre-order scam, why ban something when there's not even a problem?

 

[joeleoli]

Tell that to a lot of the triple A companies doing it. Trust me, its not just about WANTING more money. Some of them (not counting EA, who are confirmed moneywhores) actually need it. Why? Because the money required to produce tech-breaking Triple A games is constantly rising, yet people demand the prices remain at $60 or so and often refuse to buy anything more expensive than that unless they get more.

Anyway, enough off-topic. Let's try another comparison. Let's say someone ordered a specific creation, but cannot afford for it to be completely exclusive, so they give permission to sell it nonexclusively for the same price they pay. The only difference between that and a pre-order would be that it's to the specifications of the customer instead of something in the mind of the seller. However, the potential for disappointment is the same.


And lastly, if you have 0 experience with pre-order scams and the likes, what are you even basing this suggestion on? i've never seen anyone do anything like a pre-order scam, why ban something when there's not even a problem?

1. This is MC-Market, not EA... Nobody here is selling pre-orders to pay for expenses.

2. What do the specifications of the seller or customer have to do with anything? Why would the builder do work for the customer if the customer can't pay for it? And if he did agree to do the work for the customer and then could re-sell it, why would pre-ordering even be a thing? Finish the product and sell it. My whole thread is talking about PRODUCTS, not services.

3. I said personal experience, meaning I haven't been involved with it myself. I've seen it happen. It's a problem if it happens when it doesn't need to.

Hard to comprehend what you just fucking wrote. Not trying to be mean, but it seems like you're just talking out of your ass.

 

[Ivain]

1. This is MC-Market, not EA... Nobody here is selling pre-orders to pay for expenses.

2. What do the specifications of the seller or customer have to do with anything? Why would the builder do work for the customer if the customer can't pay for it? And if he did agree to do the work for the customer and then could re-sell it, why would pre-ordering even be a thing? Finish the product and sell it.

3. I said personal experience, meaning I haven't been involved with it myself. I've seen it happen. It's a problem if it happens when it doesn't need to.

Hard to comprehend what you just fucking wrote. Not trying to be mean, but it seems like you're just talking out of your ass.

Well, Its obvious we're the opposite of being on the same wavelength, since we're talking adjacently. Let's just quit it here, neither of us is getting anywhere. we'll see what happens.

 

[WristzPvP]

Aye man, do you want to preorder my new anti cheat? It's called BullShit.AntiCheat, it has machine learning almost implemented which I will not prove because I'm too cool. Price $500.

 

[matthewp]

Aye man, do you want to preorder my new anti cheat? It's called BullShit.AntiCheat, it has machine learning almost implemented which I will not prove because I'm too cool. Price $500.

You mean bullshit.rip?

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/209973/

 

[WristzPvP]

You mean bullshit.rip?

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/209973/

Ahh yes, Sorry about that. Want to preorder basic edition?

 

[matthewp]

Ahh yes, Sorry about that. Want to preorder basic edition?

Yeah, when will it be released????