Scam Reduction:

[Jdsgames]

I have an idea on how MC-Market can reduce/eliminate most scammers from the site.

This involves the development of two ideas that coexists with the rest of the site.

A Leveling System: This is used to judge the legitimacy of a seller
-Note this will need its own system for getting "Reputation" and shouldn't be ran under the normal rating system. This system should be determined by the number of legitimate sales that you make. A legitimate sale will be defined below and will also explain why this is a good thing to add in with to judge sellers.

A soft currency type system within MC-Market: This would allow users to purchase in-web credit to purchase builds with along with taking this in-web credit outside of the website. This would work similar to buying a rank for the server you pay X amount of dollars from paypal/financial source and you would receive Y amount of in-web credit.

For example they can have something like

Buy: 10.00 in-web credit for 11.00 What this will do is allow the MC-Market website to have a build up of cash after a purchase for when the seller wants to withdraw their balance from the website.

Now to the process of how this could be implemented to "Slow down" scamming or reduce the chance of the scammer walking away with the money.

For example when a user purchases this credit it is stored in their "account" and this "account" would have three separate values: Money To Spend, Money To TakeOut, Money On Hold.

Money To Spend: This is what you get when you buy a in-web credit package from the example above.

Money To Withdraw: This is what you can withdraw out of the system whenever you would like or transfer it into spendable money ingame.

Money On Hold: This is what a seller will get when someone makes a purchase preventing scammers from taking the money and leaving instantly again putting a slow down/reduction on scamming.

How this system would work between a buyer and seller

The Buyer: Once he/she makes a purchase the buyer has X amount of time that MC-Market would determine to make a scam report. If the buyer doesn't make a scam report in the allotted time the buyer can no longer claim against the seller that they sold something they were not suppose to. (This puts responsibility on Buyer)

The Seller: The seller "receives" the money from the purchase in Money On Hold. This amount of money is held for a certain amount of time for each purchase that MC-Market would determine. What this allows is enough time for the buyer to make a scam report and for a moderator to undo the purchase and remove the credits from the seller and return to the buyer. As well as banning/punishing the scammer.

The Moderator: After the buyer has submitted a scam report the moderator would have whatever the seller has to wait until they can withdrawl the cash - the days the buyer took to make the scam report. This is why the buyer is limited to a certain amount of time before they can no longer claim a scam. This should give moderators a fair amount of time to reply to a scam report if filed.

How the system can incorporate a leveling system that works with MC-Market sellers!

Nobody likes being scammed and having a hold put on their money. So here is a system I thought of that can counter-act this so respected/reputable sellers don't have as long to wait to get their money back!

Levels work off Legitimate Sales.
Legitimate Sales: A sale that has been completed and taken out of the Money on Hold and put into the Sellers withdraw balance. Every time a sale happens that goes through without a scam report or had a scam report that was denied. (false reporting stopper)

Now what do sellers get as a reward for being honest sellers?
As a seller levels and becomes more reputable during this process they will have a deduction in how long they have to wait to withdraw the amount from the website.

These levels would be almost worthless to "boost" because to obtain points that accumulate for you to level up you would need to repeatedly buy your own build.

Now let me explain how this process really makes buying your own build to boost your leveling worthless.

Since a user would have to pay slightly more for in-game credit (This way once MC-Market has fees taken off they are still covered) they would end up losing money trying to boost their own stats which would take a ton of purchase to get from level say 1-20.

Here is the basic over-view of what I said above:

A Seller has a level counter to count their seller reputation on the site.
All users would need to buy credits to make purchases so the money is not directly wired from one source to another (MC-Market) becomes a semi middleman.
The Buyer, and The Seller are limited on the amount of time they can make a report/withdraw money from the site. As a seller levels they would lose time off their hold timer that is put on their sales.

Now for legal ideas for MC-Market with this system:
Note we understand that moderators are very busy and cannot possibly process all these requests without a few slipping past and being a scam. So to prevent liability on MC-Market they should be allowed to put something in their ToS so people cannot get mad at the MC-Market community.

 

[Overlord]

Don't worry, I'm considering it.

I'm more amazed a user is suggesting this. I could understand if you did, as a ploy for money (business tactics, huh) but, strangely enough, a user did. People amaze me, beyond belief.

 

[Jdsgames]

The only major issue I see here is PayPal chargebacks.

What stops a user from doing a $200 transaction and charging back later?



I don't think that'd be enough for the amount of exit scams that this system would somewhat encourage.
I like the concept. I like the idea. It's just that the only thing bothering me here is chargebacks on MCM's PayPal account.

What about a tos thing like you have for the premium and supreme thing. Like all purchases are final????[DOUBLEPOST=1454625547,1454625398][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'm more amazed a user is suggesting this. I could understand if you did, as a ploy for money (business tactics, huh) but, strangely enough, a user did. People amaze me, beyond belief.

You have to think of the community before yourself sometimes if scamming is a problem as far as I can see this is one of the best ways to fix it

 

[Satan]

Its definitely interesting. However others have suggested ideas correlating to what this idea points to reducing scams, and to be honest MCM staff might just say its too complicated and they don't really want to be responsible for taking action against scammers, as montyburly and nara~kavi would say "Its the buyer's fault for getting scammed, do your research"

 

[Jdsgames]

Its definitely interesting. However others have suggested ideas correlating to what this idea points to reducing scams, and to be honest MCM staff might just say its too complicated and they don't really want to be responsible for taking action against scammers, as montyburly and nara~kavi would say "Its the buyer's fault for getting scammed, do your research"

So the idea is believe everyone's a bad person is practically saying the site is bad don't buy anything from anyone here?
That outlook is a bit grim to consider.

That part with "doing your research" there are billions of websites thousands dedicated to minecraft alone you cannot expect a buyer to know if they are gonna be scammed.

 

[Satan]

So the idea is believe everyone's a bad person is practically saying the site is bad don't buy anything from anyone here?
That outlook is a bit grim to consider.

That part with "doing your research" there are billions of websites thousands dedicated to minecraft alone you cannot expect a buyer to know if they are gonna be scammed.

I don't agree with their philosophy, but I tried suggesting an idea that correlates to reducing scamming. The truth is (at least from my view and this was a couple months ago) that MCM really doesn't care of scammers. If you get scammed, welp hope scammer gets banned, move on with life. Its the response I feel all the time and felt then. Mick what do you have to say about this ???

 

[Jdsgames]

One other way to stop people from charging back, as far as I know, would be to use a private sellfy page. You'd upload the file to sellfy, set it so it isn't visible on your sellfy store page, skip the publication part and give the buyer the link
Disadvantages: The buyer can put a file there that's not real, and you wouldn't have a way to get your money back.
I intend to use this system for anything of $30 or larger, unless I trust the person.
Oh, and it costs a total of around a dollar per transaction, or at least it does for me.
I would recommend for McMarket to use a similar system.
I don't know for sure, but it may be due to the use of "merchant buttons" as they used to be called under the old paypal system. As far as I know, charging back from those is not possible.
Similar websites are also an option.

For accounts, of course, this is not really an option, but accounts are a risky business anyway.



Anyway, while this is a nice idea, I worry that it will seriously slow down transactions, and I would prefer to be able to conduct transactions outside this system still. Which will become 'socially impossible' relatively shortly after it is implemented, since people will assume anyone that doesn't want to use it is trying to scam (as a reputable member I have less risk of that, but its still definitely possible). I loathe the idea of having to wait even a day longer for my money, and I've avoided chargeback scams so far, so I really don't need this system.
Also, if the rate is 10 on-website credit for 11 irl currency, no thanks. That's a helluva lot if it scales. if it doesn't its fine.

This system has more potential than most, but I would hate to see it become a standard thing, since it is bloody inconvenient for people that like to do lots of deals
Maybe test it out for the accounts section specifically, since that is the one section where scamming is really difficult to prevent.


Oh, and one more disadvantage: Stolen content. If I was to buy graphics from someone then find those same graphics but with a different color palette elsewhere (and obviously not made by the person that sold me them), I would likely have already exceeded the scam report period.
This is a problem of balance, since finding out if work is stolen can be quite time-consuming (it can take weeks), while holding the money for weeks would be ridiculous.

So, while this idea has some serious potential, I highly recommend fixing up some more holes (i've probably missed a bunch still) before beginning to implement it.

Well with stolen content I understand that is a major issue but again with thousands of pages or more dedicated to minecraft no system can really counter that. And the credit is like 10$ website credit for 11$ but that is also an example figure the guys at Mc-Market would have to take some time to number crunch what would be the best plan of attack for the prices.

And about the many deals part did you not read the leveling system section if people who make a lot of deals that are marked as a legitimate sale they can lower the wait period on more dedicated sellers of the site. Again giving rewards for being a legit seller rather than a scammer.

I do like the points about the inside outside transaction part as well being a bit more tedious and it was more so for the resource threads section where the user pays first anyway. I wouldn't quite see it moved to all the free trade forums but there are ways to tweak a system like this to plug most holes and allow wiggle room.[DOUBLEPOST=1454627053,1454626910][/DOUBLEPOST]

I don't agree with their philosophy, but I tried suggesting an idea that correlates to reducing scamming. The truth is (at least from my view and this was a couple months ago) that MCM really doesn't care of scammers. If you get scammed, welp hope scammer gets banned, move on with life. Its the response I feel all the time and felt then. Mick what do you have to say about this ???

Yes but fixing scams is a ton harder once the money is already left pockets. I wouldn't want to try getting the money back either that way to be honest. However as rocket said that it would be more easily logged so.... You would have a "history" of scam reports and legitimate sales for each users rather than picking and trying to put together evidence.

 

[Ajdin]

Let Mick worry about that one. I'm sure a legitimate, registered business (lol), with legitimate customers, will have no problems with them.

If you want to talk legal, I assume there are certain currency policies/laws that if you want to have some sort of online currency/payment processor.

Now, I'm not saying this true. I just think it would only make sense. I don't think anyone can go online and start a escrow service of some sort without the proper licenses for it.

What about a tos thing like you have for the premium and supreme thing. Like all purchases are final????

If someone wants to exit scam, they'll do it. No matter what. I don't think they would care about any kind of on-site punishment.

to be honest MCM staff might just say its too complicated

Nothing is complicated here. We'd be willing to go through all this effort if it reduces scamming by a good amount because I honestly find the entire "scam report" system we have in place right now terrible.


My conclusion on scams here: I mean, personally, I don't feel like it's our (the current staff) fault. The Minecraft community in general is very immature and difficult to deal with. The worst thing to do is to involve money in it. And if you do decide to do it, it should be done properly (not a scam report system). I feel like a lot more could have been done at the start of MCM to prevent things like this.

What's more funny, all those competitors are just copying us, even our mistakes. They all did it. Eventually they will all run into issues that we're running into now (if they do manage to grow to a somewhat bigger userbase).

EDIT: tl;dr, don't fight the issue, prevent it.

 

[Overlord]

as montyburly and nara~kavi would say "Its the buyer's fault for getting scammed, do your research"

Isn't that what I say?

That part with "doing your research" there are billions of websites thousands dedicated to minecraft alone you cannot expect a buyer to know if they are gonna be scammed.

You, my friend, would be excellent at English literature. You take every word literally. Research just means common sense, in this context. Unfortunately, here in the UK, you wouldn't even pass GCSE Eng. lit. if you can't explore layers of meaning, especially the primary one you should've picked out.

Here's the problems. Nothing to do with research:

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/71748/ - "Hey. I'm obviously doing something against PayPal's TOS, or I'm under 18, so I can't contact PayPal to prove the transaction isn't unauthorised (it's an unauthorised claim, not a poor item claim, so it's an instant win since the terms "I am not satisfied" don't work). AKA, he's a retard.

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/71496/ - same as above

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/72489/ - don't invest in 12 year olds. Also, most stupid "contract" I've seen. Investor is also a kid, pretending to be some formal businessman.

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/72291/ - tried contacting PayPal? instead of some useless users on a forum that can't do anything about it (to get your money back)

http://www.mc-market.org/threads/72259/ - ban him!! believe me!! hes a scammer!!

Me going to court:
"Kill the President. He's Bin Laden!!! I have proof, but it's in my drawer, and I don't have a camera and I'm scared to bring it to the court. Believe me, execute him!!!!"

You get the point. I clicked random scam reports, and only one was legitimate enough to even be considered, well, legitimate.

 

[Satan]

Nothing is complicated here. We'd be willing to go through all this effort if it reduces scamming by a good amount because I honestly find the entire "scam report" system we have in place right now terrible.

Are you speaking for all of the staff? Last I heard from any scam reducing ideas, was the majority of staff said "Too much effort, we agree with just researching before you make deals and get scammed. If you get scammed, tough luck make a scam report"

 

[Overlord]

If you want to talk legal, I assume there are certain currency policies/laws that if you want to have some sort of online currency/payment processor.

Now, I'm not saying this true. I just think it would only make sense. I don't think anyone can go online and start a escrow service of some sort without the proper licenses for it.

For a virtual forum currency? Nah, there's no laws in US federal/state or UK jurisdiction at least. There are, however, laws on taxation. For everything with real value, aka the money going in to buy the virtual forum currency, Mick should be reporting. Unfortunately, AU law isn't my speciality but I know he should have this place registered, I'm sure he doesn't (I wonder what a quick email to Australia's inland tax agency would do ), that'd cover deposits to buy virtual forum currency, as well. The currency itself, I doubt Australia care about a forum "credits" system. Only the money with real backing.[DOUBLEPOST=1454627432,1454627318][/DOUBLEPOST]

Are you speaking for all of the staff? Last I heard from any scam reducing ideas, was the majority of staff said "Too much effort, we agree with just researching before you make deals and get scammed. If you get scammed, tough luck make a scam report"

That was me saying that, I think. Previous administrations supported it, not sure if they still like the system. If it didn't cause chaos removing it, though, I'd say get rid of it. Unfortunately, the kids here are accustomed to it.

I'll speak for legitimate business - talk to PayPal, your bank, the payment processors and law enforcement. The people that can do something. Again, not a bunch of 15 year olds with the user title "Business and Legal Advisor Expert 2016", aged 15 aiming for a GCSE qualification in Maths, to a grade B. Half way there, at least,

 

[Ivain]

Well with stolen content I understand that is a major issue but again with thousands of pages or more dedicated to minecraft no system can really counter that. And the credit is like 10$ website credit for 11$ but that is also an example figure the guys at Mc-Market would have to take some time to number crunch what would be the best plan of attack for the prices.

And about the many deals part did you not read the leveling system section if people who make a lot of deals that are marked as a legitimate sale they can lower the wait period on more dedicated sellers of the site. Again giving rewards for being a legit seller rather than a scammer.

I do like the points about the inside outside transaction part as well being a bit more tedious and it was more so for the resource threads section where the user pays first anyway. I wouldn't quite see it moved to all the free trade forums but there are ways to tweak a system like this to plug most holes and allow wiggle room.[DOUBLEPOST=1454627053,1454626910][/DOUBLEPOST]

Yes but fixing scams is a ton harder once the money is already left pockets. I wouldn't want to try getting the money back either that way to be honest. However as rocket said that it would be more easily logged so.... You would have a "history" of scam reports and legitimate sales for each users rather than picking and trying to put together evidence.

yeah, great, but such a history takes time to build up. And I'd rather not be shackled to a system like that. So if it does get implemented, I'm moving out.

As I said, its a nice idea. But systems like this often end up creating a lot of bother, just to save a few people from scams they could've avoided themselves. I made a guide on that sort of thing, and while it will never be full up to date (I can't update it faster than I encounter scam attempts), I still see way too many people with scam reports that could have been entirely avoided if they'd read my guide and used its advice, or even thought for themselves.

I agree the number of scams needs to be reduced, but implementing a system like this just to help the people that can't help themselves would be a waste.

after some analysis, the real main problem is that as long as it is not possible to validate if a bit of content is stolen or not, or if it works, this system will only be a more complex version of the current one.

You say buying your own product with alts will not work because it will cost money due to the fees. But lets say that you buy your own product 10 times with 10 different alts. you'd then gain 10 points or whatever, and scam someone for $200, while you only lost $10-20. Its the same problem as already exists with so called "high-rep" members. nothing is gonna stop them from exit-scamming, as already mentioned by BeBosny.
The only thing this system DOES stop is scams of the sort that should not be successful in the first place, but still work because people are too naive or inexperienced or impatient. Or get exit-scammed by a member that was formerly reliable.

Also, a system like this will only work temporarily anyway, like all systems. The steam trading system is almost as fool-proof as can be, but people still get scammed on steam trades. Despite there being a 72-hour delay if you don't verify a deal with your phone, or if a user has certain account settings. Despite a LOT of other problems.

TLDR for those that dislike reading: No matter how complex, convoluted and secure you make a system, there will always be human error, and there will always be scammers to exploit that.

I guarantee you that within a year of this system being implemented, people will have found a way to bypass the system.


Anyway, that's that ramble.
Primarily intended for the resource system sounds good, but it leaves me with one question. How many scams take place in the resource section? as far as I know, almost none.

Again, I appreciate the effort. its similar to what I tried to achieve with my anti-scamming guide. However, the problem for both of our efforts is that human error will remain.

 

[Ajdin]

Are you speaking for all of the staff? Last I heard from any scam reducing ideas, was the majority of staff said "Too much effort, we agree with just researching before you make deals and get scammed. If you get scammed, tough luck make a scam report"

It honestly depends on the system. We're not detectives or people who finished harvard law school. Even if we were, I think we'd be doing something better with our lives than resolving $10 scams on a Minecraft marketplace.

We just get suggestions like "Moderate all deals", "Approve all shops first" etc but those are just not as efficient. I really had plans for some sort of escrow kind of thing but thinking and planning it more and more pretty much makes me want to do it less and less. There's just so many flaws with any system. So far, any kind of system would still have very little results.

Don't get me wrong, I'm always open for these kind of suggestions. In fact, I encourage people to post them so that they can be discussed to find the best resolution together.

 

[Jdsgames]

yeah, great, but such a history takes time to build up. And I'd rather not be shackled to a system like that. So if it does get implemented, I'm moving out.

As I said, its a nice idea. But systems like this often end up creating a lot of bother, just to save a few people from scams they could've avoided themselves. I made a guide on that sort of thing, and while it will never be full up to date (I can't update it faster than I encounter scam attempts), I still see way too many people with scam reports that could have been entirely avoided if they'd read my guide and used its advice, or even thought for themselves.

The reason this would cause a "lot" of bother is because it wasn't implemented to begin with. If a system like this was normal people wouldn't have questioned it as bad. You being spoiled with no real system would be bothered because it disturbs how you originally functioned with the site.

However I will say that I appreciate you thinking it is a nice idea and your point about some of the "inexperienced" members could have taken a look at your guide.

I agree the number of scams needs to be reduced, but implementing a system like this just to help the people that can't help themselves would be a waste.

Not really since moderators would have more time to check scam reports and they would be holding this money for a certain amount of time before hand. So for example If I sold you a $200 build that is still on hold for x amount of days and the buyer and moderator have time to get to the report instead of it being transferred directly into my paypal wallet. Yes accidents and slips will occur but again the whole holding a sellers money until they show they can be trusted would discourage scamming. And just because you are high rep doesn't mean the system will auto let you withdraw funds you will only wait like 4ish days or something like that instead of say 2 weeks. AGAIN all numbers I come up with are example numbers and are not to be taken in a literal sense.

after some analysis, the real main problem is that as long as it is not possible to validate if a bit of content is stolen or not, or if it works, this system will only be a more complex version of the current one.

This system would prevent a broken build from passing along in most cases since again MC-Market holds the money for a bit instead of the instant source to source.
The idea of stolen content No system can fully prove who did what build, or who has permission for this that and the other thing. However again with the funds being held for a bit Moderators have more time to fix the problem rather than saying "Well it is out of our system now" + "Not our issue anymore" in some cases where they have no control. (Again slip-ups are gonna happen due to HUMAN ERROR but that doesn't destroy the system.

You say buying your own product with alts will not work because it will cost money due to the fees. But lets say that you buy your own product 10 times with 10 different alts. you'd then gain 10 points or whatever, and scam someone for $200, while you only lost $10-20. Its the same problem as already exists with so called "high-rep" members. nothing is gonna stop them from exit-scamming, as already mentioned by BeBosny.

Well 10 sales wouldn't make you a "high rep" in a system like this so in reality for them to do that they would have to repeatedly buy and buy the same build using alts + wait the time for the sales to go through until credited and then do this by then MC-Market has already made profit enough to cover from this idea. Also with this system even a "high rep" would have to wait before withdrawing.

Another thing this system would be able to do is Tag certain prices ranges with more time. For Example (again not litteral numbers)
This would slow down/prevent the process of getting high rep then cashing out as fast.

0.01-5.00 -Max = 1 week Min = 4 days
5.01-20.00 -Max = 1.5 weeks Min= 5 days
20.01 - 50.00 - Max = 2weeks Min= 7 days
50.01-100.00 Max = 2.5weeks Min= 10 days
100.01-200.00 Max = 3 weeks Min = 12 days
200.01+ Max = 3.5 weeks Min = 2 weeks.

ALL OF THE NUMBERS ABOVE ARE EXAMPLES (MC-Market would set according to self belief)

The only thing this system DOES stop is scams of the sort that should not be successful in the first place, but still work because people are too naive or inexperienced or impatient. Or get exit-scammed by a member that was formerly reliable.


I guarantee you that within a year of this system being implemented, people will have found a way to bypass the system.
Yes people that try to go outside and around the site for these trades again this would be completely off site and nothing against MC-Market. Doing the scam in-site would be a more difficult thing to get away with.

I will admit there are faults in my system just like any other system you need to adapt it and make it better in due time.

P.S Ivain I have underlined my responses to sections individual in your quote because there is way to many points to just post at the bottom and try to keep track of which ones I have covered directly and which ones that needed more attention.

 

[Gruss]

-1 I honestly would rather just use PayPal.

 

[Ajdin]

-1 I honestly would rather just use PayPal.

You technically are using PayPal.

You should give more details as to why you dislike the idea.

 

[Gruss]

You technically are using PayPal.

You should give more details as to why you dislike the idea.

I dislike the idea because of the following:

-MCM would end up receiving chargebacks from the scamming users.
(I think this would be a HUGE liability for MCM- If it were me, I wouldn't want to take the risk)
-If you had to wait 30 days to receive the "tokens/credit", it wouldn't be worth the wait.

This is basically a middleman service. What I do like is that this could reduce the amount of scamming. There shouldn't be a rule in place to restrict you from using only PayPal for transactions.

Jdsgames I applaud you for bringing this idea to the community.

 

[Jdsgames]

I dislike the idea because of the following:

-MCM would end up receiving chargebacks from the scamming users.
(I think this would be a HUGE liability for MCM- If it were me, I wouldn't want to take the risk)
-If you had to wait 30 days to receive the "tokens/credit", it wouldn't be worth the wait.

This is basically a middleman service. What I do like is that this could reduce the amount of scamming. There shouldn't be a rule in place to restrict you from using only PayPal for transactions.

Jdsgames I applaud you for bringing this idea to the community.

There would be no rule on the payment gateway other than what Mc-Market would allow using. So for example if they didn't use bitcoin you can't use bitcoin.

However I still don't understand what if I charged-back a Premium/Supreme membership wouldn't it work the same as if I did it with this in-web currency? To me this is the same concept as a scammer charging back for a rank.
- A possible fix is to limit the amount you can put in per day/week/month (again not like Oh you can only store 10$ a week but enough that if a scammer did try to charge back the site the total value wouldn't be site-crushing)

Any system that helps the exchange of money would be a middle man service however this is better than filing a scam report after the money is flown out of the site where in reality there is no way the site can assist other than banning the scammer. With this system the site would have logs and such so they can ban the scammer and return money before it is transferred into the seller account.

Not exactly 30 days the time would really have to be decided among the staff to determine what is best fit for this site. Again I have never done a website with a ton of web traffic so personally I can't say exact times nor amounts. And with this system you still have the credits but almost like paypal if you make a bit of larger priced sales they hold onto a portion/all of it until a confirmation.

Again only my opinion of how this would benefit more than these cons. I tried to put as much hold plugs into it as possible but again I came up with this idea only after being asked what would I do in another forum related to scamming issues.


Also something else for links that are outside the Mc-market realm you can have a notification that after they leave the site Mc-Market has no liabilty to scams/unwanted content (again I just used a broader topic of Unwanted Content) site would fill this in.

 

[Jdsgames]

Question about the chargeback things. Do you guys honestly think people will do hundred of dollar deals with this system vs doing deals like they have been doing for a while? I don't think so tbh. Sure little deals might be changed to using a system that gets added but large deals they might do without any "help" off site?

Please explain that I don't get what you are asking.