Even before this incident I had already made my opinion on scam reports and their time lengths. I really kept it in until tonight though because I had had enough. The bottom line I see here is these reports take way too log and I believe the scam resolvers moderating it excessively is a factor in it taking so long.
Scam Resolvers
- Thread starter Sloth
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A decision about whether a user has scammed needs to be made with facts. It doesn't matter who has the "longer end" and a discussion is irrelevant. The question in scam reports is "Did the user scam or intend to do so?". It's a simple gathering of evidence and coming up with a yes or no answer.
Honestly, if the post has nothing to do with facts about the case, I don't think the post should be on the thread, to be honest. The only people that should really be posting are the user reporting the scam and the user being accused of the scam. Users vouching for one another and sharing their opinion about whether or not the user scammed is irrelevant, the way I see it.
You're right. Scam reports are supposed to be simple reports to gather simple and almost obvious evidence. Right now they are not too simple and they suffer because of this. A post on a scam report should have to relate to the scam report at hand yes, but users should be allowed to voice their opinions on it as well. Especially if the scam resolvers are not doing the best job possible.
Starting off, you stated in the OP - Reports have been left for a month. That is when the poster of the report and user being reported agree on a fair refund date. Whether it's the next day, 2 weeks or a whole month.
Second off, your post looked like pure hate hence the issue of the warning. Although tjrgg has told me the correct stance I should've had taken against your ruthless comment.
Third, in the future - why talk behind a users back? I don't care if your scared or hiding behind your friends, come say it to my face so we talk it out and find the source of the problem.
Fourth, reports are handled on a daily basis. Majority are taken with me to PMs to show extra proof or account credentials not to be shown to the public.
You must learn to be keen and patient. We are not robots that stay on all day.
- Half the comments posted are vouches. On Scam reports, vouches do not matter at all. It has no value.
- A few more are low quality posts, or devouches for a poor service which still doesn't matter.
- A handful are accepted which help the scam report. Whether it's extra proof, offering help, and/or a witness speaking up.
- Other users like joining in the scam reports, but the risk of a whole argument breaking out and a flamewar on a report is not acceptable. Reports are meant to be resolved, not create more of a mess.
There are many reasons why I took the action to issue a warning to Sloth. It was the right choice in my eyes.
Ahh, thank you B1izzard.
Don't take it as rough blood, but rather as fair and judgemental decisions against your actions.
Thanks tjrgg
Yes but when it stops evidence flow as well that is more of a con then a pro to have moderation.
M6Gaming Very valid points. Here's an alternative... Make it so the only people who can post in a scam report is the author, the moderators, and anyone the mod invites to the thread (like the accused or a witness). However, remove the moderation queue. This would remove random people from trying to post, and it would speed up the scam report process.
Then one step further... ban all scam report threads that are not inside the scam report category
Then one step further... ban all scam report threads that are not inside the scam report category
I think the <user> seeing no progress even if done behind the scenes makes it more ideal to claim you guys sit on your butts all day rather than doing scam reports (Not saying I believe you should be enslaved all day). This is also my view with strict moderation. If nothing new gets posted it seems like the scammed is being kinda put aside?
The idea of being patient if I stole your family member (Exaggeration) and someone told you to be patient about it... What would be your reaction to that. Some people get aggravated when they see no progress or irritated when being told to sit by while everything happens.
I don't think it would remove the random posters. Not at all.M6Gaming Very valid points. Here's an alternative... Make it so the only people who can post in a scam report is the author, the moderators, and anyone the mod invites to the thread (like the accused or a witness). However, remove the moderation queue. This would remove random people from trying to post, and it would speed up the scam report process.
Then one step further... ban all scam report threads that are not inside the scam report category
Well it would limit the amount of people in the thread and then punish the flame war starters between the small group that is left.
Or have like rules on what content can be displayed in there.
If I post a vouch when no vouches I should be punished for example being removed from the thread as a whole.
You have to realize it's not just one report being handled. There are multiple ones, each with a different case scenario.
As far as family members go, let the cops do their job by finding whoever stole my family member - me complaining or talking crap about the the cops isn't going to really help the situation. Same goes under MCM perspective, you get scammed. Let us do our job, without the worthless and unneeded drama.
It is honestly, as simple as that.
1st point: Well for starters, giving users who have already admitted to scamming by claiming they never had the money at the time of a deal and then giving them 2-3 weeks to magically get the money only wastes time for both you as a scam resolvers and the OP who has already been through a lot.
2nd point: my comment looked like pure hate. If you are referring to the one saying you take 30 years to to a scam report, how is that hate? It's simply me stating that you take a very long time to make simple decisions that 6 other users have already made. Also my ruthless comment? You must not get a lot of hate if you consider anything I said to you tonight ruthless.
3rd point: I never talked behind your back. I posted directly onto that scam report questioning your remarkable idiotic post. You had already locked it though. So I took it to the sb which is public. Last time I checked I was not hiding behind anyone. Simply stating your silly comment.
4th point: I understand users sending you evidence that contains important information via PM useful, but shouldn't that only make the scam report come to a nearer end? It seems like it really has no change in the report.
Last few points: yes you two scam resolvers are not robots, and you can't be on all day. That is why we either need more scam resolvers or we need to fix the system to make reports more efficient. I'm usually a pretty patient person but you really set me off when you put deleting my message over banning the scammer first and for most. Scam reports should also be dealt with more time wisely because every minute wasted is another minute another user can be scammed. I count almost 10 people were involved in that report in some way. Why? Because it took way too long to have Dad banned. Also the vouches and devouches should be removed because it's not a sales thread.
I'll make it clean and simple.
1- We do not make decisions. The OP makes them and we finalize them in case you still haven't realized that.
2 - I took it as a ruthless comment. You may take it as something else, but as tjrgg posted 'It is not the best spot on a scam report'. So I decided to issue a warning for it. Big problem being nothing.
3 - If I hadn't seen that comment, I knew for a fact you would continue. So I made sure to end your disrespect right there at that moment. You believe I made a mistake? Then create a PM with me or tag me through.
4 - It has lots of change to the report. What are you talking about? May I also ask how you would know how it effects the report? Extra proof is like a so called game changer. If the accused is evading it or has no other defense statement. Its the end for them.
Reports are fine the way they are. 10 more users got scammed, so where were you warning the others to not deal with him? Where were you to create a PM with me to ask for an important check on the report? From what I see, you are urging all these statements on my behalf for no specific reason. Sure it would've prevented others from being scammed, but what did you do to help us bring it to our attention?
Answer - Nothing. I don't mean any of my counters as disrespect or such. But I consider my actions correct and justified. Whether or not you like it 'Sloth'.
Then you need a system to reduce the amount of scams you have.
I don't mean talking crap but again if you saw the cops doing nothing (or what you thought was nothing BTS work) would you be calm about it. I understand talking crap won't help but on a buyer standpoint it is very nerve racking seeing nothing getting done.
Do I believe you should have time to get all the evidence in: Yes
Do I think opening scam reports to full un-moderated is a good idea: Possibly (Thoughtful test run)
Or have it where the moderator can bring in people and they have full discussion.
Do I think there is a bigger flaw with the current system than the moderation timing: Very much so
If you guys had a way to limit scams the quality and efficiency of your work would greatly improve.
I also strictly believe once the money leaves this site you guys are useless other than banning the scammer.
Everyone is shunning the idea of change in all perspectives. If these systems were in place before people would only be asking slight modifications rather than not having it at all.
You do not realize, we take the time to review all the proof before forming a justified decision.
I do not understand what is with this whole statements. The cops in this fantasy story do as much as they may push it. MCM is different. There are three outcomes - Banned, Closed, Declined.
A ban is a last resort, when -
A. The issue may not be resolved
B. The proof is evident from the opposing side
C. Defense does not have anything else and/or is lying/providing false statements.
Those are the details for the report being closed with a final ban. If your stating all General reports take this long, then I hope you are joking with me. This specific case took this long to review everything and make sure I don't hesitate the choice after the ban.
If you are questioning my actions, then provide valid points with valid proof. It aches me to see stuff like this without both.
1st point: you don't make decisions? I find that hard to believe because I've seen scam resolvers turn a scam report completely around and side with the eh other user in question. I believe that actually happened in Tulips recent scam report.
2nd point: As I said before. In any persons eyes who have experienced true ruthlessness, that comment was not in anyway ruthless. Saying you take forever to solve a scam report is a silly comparison to that word.
3rd point: it's not really that fact that you deleted that post. Granted it was on a thread I created but the reason that set me off is you seemed to make that a greater priority than the actually threat at hand.
4th point: you're right. How are normal
Users like me supposed to know how this private evidence changes the report. Might as well just keep scam reports to PMs if all the important evidence that can convict a user is being done through PMs.
Last point: Where was I? Warning the users in PMs, warning them on Skype, warning them through the shoutbox. Also to bring it to the staffs attention. I actually did come looking for you during the day but sadly you were offline for quite a while. I even asked the sb mods whee you were and they had no idea. That really shows you were not on for some time. My specific reason for these statements? The longer it takes to solve a scam report the more users get scammed. Clearly proved that one today. Obviously the system needs to be changed otherwise all these users above me wouldn't be commenting. I really think it could stay the same if more resolvers were appointed. Resolvers in different time zones.
1. The user being reported provided valid statements, I heard both sides of the story and had BeBosny involved as well. From here, your corrupt thoughts end. You are not involved in the report, you may believe whichever you shall to help yourself out. At the end, I will always value my co-workers as staff decisions to help with a final conclusion of the report.
2. Already handled this. What do you know about handling ruth comments again?
3. The ban was handled beforehand handling your unnecessary comment. I do not understand where you are going with this.
4. As I stated, it is for private evidence. Personal names, emails, TID, and security of the user is what we respect. You do not seem to understand the basic purpose behind a PM. To provide a secure and private system meant for messaging for whichever reason you need it for.
This is going no where. All your comments are countered easily in my eyes, hence you do not know the deep information behind it. Nor will you be needing that information as it does not concern you buddy. I'm deciding to stop here before a whole flame war is created from my final decision.
Hopefully you find whatever your seeking to do here on this thread. As I wish you best of luck with your actions starting now till this thread is done. I expect better from you.
For the 1st point I simply used that as an example in stating OP's don't make the major decisions. I just saw that as a recent example so I used it.
2nd point. Clearly more than you
3rd point: I don't believe the ban was handled before my comment was deleted. Actually, you even posted on that thread that you expected better from me when you claimed the report closed and the user banned. Before that my comment and a few others were already gone but whatever.
4th point: thanks for explaining what everyone knows again. Like I said before. People will question why users are punished in a scam report of a mass amount of evidence is within a PM. It's not like evidence simply can't be edited to an extent to allow normal users to view it whilst they send scam resolvers the full proof. As far as expecting more from me, what do you actually expect? To simply have an opinion that you like? Criticism is a thing. Saying you take forever to finish a report is mine.
This is a very good suggestion, as I continuously have to remove meaningless content such as 'vouches' for example. Scam reports (in my opinion at least) are to be reviewed on a case by case basis - and content such as vouches are designed to try and unfairly swing a scam report in the opposing direction.
I've posted this suggestion on the staff suggestions chat we have, and appropriately credited yourself for it.
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