Unban the sale and purchase of Discord Server Boosts

[120275]

The most recent post in the Announcements forum made by Mick announces that Discord Nitro sales and Discord Nitro Boost sales will now be banned due to "excessive scamming". While there is merit to the ban in favour of reducing the number of users that will get scammed, here is a quick review based on my opinions of the ban:

1. The post says that the sections were removed due to "excessive scamming". A quick review of the first 5 pages of the Scam Reports Archive, and the Scam Reports section (which should not be counted, because unless the user has actually scammed out; it can't be counted as a scam) - more Scam Reports were made by users on reputable users for development services and configuration services than any product, let alone Discord Boosts & Nitro codes. A closer look into the Scam Reports of those users reveals that the majority (excluding one high-profile ban) were new users, who are predisposed to scam out anyway - a higher majority of the Banned Users in the Scam Reports Archive is made up of newer users - and due to the low-cost, easy-transaction nature of products in the Gift Codes & Licenses section, newer users (who are often ban evaders) find it easy to scam out. This is not only the case for Discord Boosts/Nitros, and I will address this later.

2. The argument for Discord Boosts being blackhat/greyhat has little merit now in the wake of the Epic Games offer. There is a perfectly legal way to obtain Nitro codes and Boosts without needing to card, perform identity theft, or any other illegal activity now, and the argument would have had more merit a month earlier or 4 months later (when the offer and codes expire fully). A ban is only hurting the community from purchasing perfectly legitimate services. If staff really does believe there is a need for a review of the methods used to purchase these boosts, then they can do so (I believe they have done this in the past?).

3. The greater argument to be made is the high-risk for buyers in the Gifts & Licenses section along with the Other Products session - which is a perfectly reasonable and valid argument. However, banning boosts sets a dangerous precedent as soon the section will be completely phased out of use because of "excessive scamming". Newer users are far more likely to scam in this section than a more established user is - high-value scams by established users happen in Services or the Currency Conversion sections but that isn't the point here.

The recent offers are an easy way for people to make profit if they know what they're doing and that profit finds its way back into the MCM community and also as revenue for MC-M - several legitimate sellers (myself included) can make legitimate profits from this. Banning sections like this arbitrarily only hurts the community rather than protecting it from scams since they will occur offsite in any case.

Another thing to note is that the decision was (reportedly) unilateral by Mick and staff did not get much of a say (according to a discussion I had with Geek in shoutbox). While this in itself may not be a bad thing, it does bring up the issue that the community is not well-represented by the staff. We were also not informed of this decision the way we were for the Investments and Loans forum.

SOLUTIONS:
Every good suggestion has a solution: here are mine.

1. Unban Discord Nitro and Boost Selling.
2. Increase the requirements to post in the Gift Codes & Licenses and the Other Products forum due to their high-risk nature by newer users. Reputation requirements and message requirements are a good start. Scams will reduce dramatically.
3. Allow staff to perform reviews on members who they suspect of illegitimate activity. A private conversation with Ally revealed a good point that most of the Nitro community treats their business models very carefully (though this is due to the nature that people steal ideas quickly and there is no protection against that here) and I assume Nitro sellers and Boost sellers would be more than happy to reveal their (legitimate) methods to staff under guarantee they won't be resold.



TLDR:
1. banned for excessive scamming but increase of requirements will make sure new users can't scam out easily and leave way for trusted sellers (who are less predisposed to scam)
2. no longer blackhat and greyhat due to recent epic games offers and staff can verify those who seem suspicious
3. community sentiment was not taken into hand

I will defend my opinions.

 

[Tommy W]

Very good points, it's weird as to why they'd ban only a single type of product due to scams, like with all other sections of the forums, users should do proper research in the user they're doing the deal with, using an mm, etc. It affects many legitimate sellers as well and I personally think they should add it back.

 

[HotDoctor]

Agree, I'm totally sure that 120275 can manage so well their sales with this service.

 

[120275]

I have mixed feelings on this. I do support their decision of banning discord nitro sales as the nitros almost always get revoked and are gained through illegitimate means, I don't support the fact that they've banned discord boost sales as 120275 has pointed out that there's a legitimate method to get boosts now.

Thanks.

The 3-month Discord Nitros that are being sold are obtained via perfectly legitimate means (same methods used to obtain the boosts) so I don't see any reason why those should be banned. As for the Discord Nitro sales of 1-month or 1-year Nitros, I'm not exactly sure on the methods these are obtained with however I am sure there are legitimate methods since I used them extensively a couple of years back.

Like I said, the introduction of a requirement will definitely cut off the users looking to make an illegitimate buck and for users who spend more time on the site, they will take the time to find legitimate means for fear of a ban under 5.4 or a warning for 10-20 points (I think).[DOUBLEPOST=1623945183][/DOUBLEPOST]A conversation with Mick and Automating in shoutbox revealed that one of the reasonings behind the ban was due to the forbidden products and services "Misused company promotions".

My Response:
1. The purpose of the ban which was outlined in the announcements was due to "excessive scamming". Shifting the goalposts now seems like an unprofessional thing to do and it makes me think that the ban was not actually well-planned or discussed in the first place.

2. To my knowledge, there is no clause by Epic that prevents people from using the Nitro as they wish. Besides, even if the Nitro codes were being sold, there may be some merit to that argument. However, these Nitro codes are being used and subscriptions to Discord are being created which is the exact point of these codes - I haven't been reselling the codes from the promotions themselves. I have been putting them on accounts. I am perfectly allowed to have as many Discord accounts as I like, I'm also allowed to use these accounts' boosts as I like.

3. I know this argument is overused - but it still has a point - if MCM is going to ban things (without majority community approval as well) in such an arbitrary fashion, why is it being done to select products and services rather than the overall picture? It seems like there's no coherency to the bans and no explanation offered either especially as other services on this forum violates terms of services too.

The ban hurts the community from purchasing boosts from reliable sellers instead of certain regulations that can help both sellers and buyers and also MCM. As with most bans, if this decision was really taken for the community then it would make sense to increase requirements and keep it unbanned rather than banning it which will drive the sales offsite and harm the community further, rather than making MCM a safer place for people to conduct business with low risk of being scammed.[DOUBLEPOST=1623957111][/DOUBLEPOST]Jasmine talked to me in shoutbox and I'll address her concerns individually:

1. High-rep users do scam.
I addressed this in my reply to flamelier above. While this is true, the rates and amounts of them scamming out are far lower than they are in other sections (which are much higher in terms of risk) such as Currency Conversion, Services (Development, Design) and Established Server - other business dealings related to asset ownership. Low-rep users are the primary scammers in forums with low or no requirements. If we're talking about high-rep users and scamming, why was there not a ban or restrictions placed on Currency Exchange?

2. This will discriminate against users who sell other Gift Codes & Licenses.
This entire decision discriminated against Nitro Boost sellers, and Nitro sellers and placed them at a massive disadvantage. The products in these sections are very similar to Nitro & Boost products: low-priced, fungible, easy to sell, indivisible and dealt individually making it a very low chance that high-rep users might actually be willing to scam out on such measly prices, but new users can afford to risk their reputation (since they have none, lol) on these prices. The solution? Requirements. If we're going to place a ban on products like Boosts and Nitro, products which are extremely similar like Gift Codes, Redemption Codes and cards should be used as well.

3. Personal scamming anecdotes.
Jasmine seems to have a different definition of scamming than MC-Market. I will leave the conversation here for review, as it's not the topic I'm trying to address here.




LightGen also made a valid point that there are legitimate methods other than this promotion that are being used. While I am unaware of such methods, I am sure any Nitro/Boost seller will be happy to let staff know under guarantee of secrecy.

If we ban everything due to "excessive scamming" when there are far less drastic and much more simple restrictions in place, we'll have to ban half the site (as has been stated many times, a common theme with MCM banning something they dislike/don't understand).

Also Zyger made this suggestion https://www.mc-market.org/threads/546324 in 2019 and one quick look at the Middleman section sees how clean it is. We used to have a bunch of idiots calling themselves middlemen before. A couple of requirements to the section cleaned it up and made it a lot more high-quality which I'm assuming is what the site wants.

 

[Scroll32]

I thought I would put my feedback on this being that I used to be a discord nitro seller.

I have mixed feelings on this. I do support their decision of banning discord nitro sales as the nitros almost always get revoked and are gained through illegitimate means, I don't support the fact that they've banned discord boost sales as 120275 has pointed out that there's a legitimate method to get boosts now.

Thats inaccurate. I've been getting legal discord nitro codes for over 18 months now, sold hundreds of codes with no issues. There are illegal ways but there are definitely legal ways to obtain nitro.

Also, 120275 they already do check to make sure you are obtaining your product legally if your service gets too big. Banned should be able to vouch for this. I also want to say that you have a great job defending your thread and I completely applaud you for it, seriously. However I know that sadly the management won't be adding this and I'll post the reasons why. They are as follows.
1. This section doesn't really get mcmarket much money. They sell 3 1 dollar threads a week, compared to thousands of dollars of ads in other sections. This explains the point you brought up, that development has more scams then this. Why is development not banned then in the crusade of scams? Because mick would have to pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to make that happen, which he won't do.
2. I eluded to this earlier, but MCM has been forced to fight back on these black hat things ever sense Minecraft accounts got banned. This is why you have seen loans get banned, crypto have threads to have limitations be in place(might be wrong on this but pretty sure I did see something on this) and not nitro being banned.

You made great points as to why this isn't the case and I truly do agree on a personal level, but management sees scams and low revenue and doesn't give a crap about if the community likes it or not but just to put it on the rap sheet of being able to turn into a legitiment marketplace. Remember, MCM is just a business after all.

 

[VinceOrlando]

3. community sentiment was not taken into hand

This right here means dick, its basically just a way of saying "you closed off a source of sales income here, how dare you!"

 

[120275]

Thats inaccurate. I've been getting legal discord nitro codes for over 18 months now, sold hundreds of codes with no issues. There are illegal ways but there are definitely legal ways to obtain nitro.

Thank you for your input! Much appreciated, have not spent much time in the Discord Nitro market after 2020 so no idea about legally obtaining Nitro - though I was told there were ways.

Also, 120275 they already do check to make sure you are obtaining your product legally if your service gets too big. Banned should be able to vouch for this.

I am aware that staff already check for these things, which is why I suggested it in the first place. Heavens forbid I ask for staff to do extra work! :rofl:

I also want to say that you have a great job defending your thread and I completely applaud you for it, seriously.

Thanks!

This section doesn't really get mcmarket much money. They sell 3 1 dollar threads a week, compared to thousands of dollars of ads in other sections. This explains the point you brought up, that development has more scams then this. Why is development not banned then in the crusade of scams? Because mick would have to pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to make that happen, which he won't do.

Fair enough. However, there are people who start off in that section and grow to spend much more on MCM - besides, if you agree with me that the amount of scams in all sections is proportional to the amount spent and there is no evidence of higher rates of scams in the Gift Codes / Other Products sections, then MCM shouldn't have a problem? If there is less money dealt, there are less scams - why was there a need to ban it in the first place if the scams are proportional to the money dealt in the sections, and even if they weren't, there are far simpler suggestions to make them proportional?

I eluded to this earlier, but MCM has been forced to fight back on these black hat things ever sense Minecraft accounts got banned. This is why you have seen loans get banned, crypto have threads to have limitations be in place(might be wrong on this but pretty sure I did see something on this) and not nitro being banned.

So far MCM has been keeping much on their site even with the Minecraft accounts banned. I've seen taunts and ad hominem attacks on staff, management and Mick by several users of this site and they have only banned "blackhat"/"greyhat" sections at a very random, arbitrary basis - if they really are planning to take action against all blackhat/greyhat sections of the site, they are moving incredibly slowly and it doesn't seem like most actual avenues of blackhat/greyhat activity - the fact that 90% of the marketplace uses PayPal despite being under 18 and transacts with MCM on a regular basis, the fact that many sites' Terms of Service are being broken by users of the site etc. I don't think the ban of I&L was about "blackhat" either - I believe it was because it was incredibly easy to scam out large amounts of money, especially for reputable members. I don't agree with that ban either, just saying.

You made great points as to why this isn't the case and I truly do agree on a personal level, but management sees scams and low revenue and doesn't give a crap about if the community likes it or not but just to put it on the rap sheet of being able to turn into a legitiment marketplace. Remember, MCM is just a business after all.

Businesses are answerable to their customers. While staff and management may say otherwise, one who has been around for a couple years can easily note that there is a decline in site activity after banning accounts - a year back, new threads used to be made every minute and now there's hardly a thread every hour.

MCM might be a business but as I said above - businesses are reliant and answerable to their customers. It's also difficult to classify MCM as a business alone in the traditional sense since it offers a platform and a service, not a product.


I do agree that if it doesn't bring MCM revenue, he is probably not going to see a reason to unban the section. I also agree that community sentiment probably doesn't matter in that scenario - wasn't thinking down that path before.

Thanks for your reply, very nuanced!

This right here means dick, its basically just a way of saying "you closed off a source of sales income here, how dare you!"

I legitimately have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

[b01w]

How is MCM meant to guarantee the safety of others once they have purchased a potentially non legit nitro.

How is MCM meant to distinguish between legit and non legit nitro.

Does MCM have enough time to do the above.

 

[Scroll32]

How is MCM meant to guarantee the safety of others once they have purchased a potentially non legit nitro.

How does mcm insure after a paypal payment is sent they don't file an unauthorized transaction? How does mcm protect to make sure they don't leak your exclusive build? The point being mcm has always been structured so they are not responsible, so they wouldn't be responsible here. Its the main reason they haven't had a verified mm section. As far as distinguishing between legit and non legit nitro, they already did that. I was a nitro seller and they asked me for my method, I gave it to them with evidence and was able to use it. So that system is already in place, while its true the staff time might of been the reason they wanted to stop it, then they really have been secretive about it. It also doesn't take a lot of time, probably 15 minutes over a couple days in my case, so its not really helping them anyway if thats the reason.

 

[Scroll32]

I doubt MCM will go through with the vetting methods thing for the same reason staff members can't middleman. Putting staff members in a position of trust also puts them in a better position for manipulating people for their assets and knowledge. Other than that, good points are made.

they were already doing this though.

 

[zap.]

This was a good read, the way you presented your points were on point. GL with this g.

 

[120275]

How is MCM meant to guarantee the safety of others once they have purchased a potentially non legit nitro.

How is MCM meant to distinguish between legit and non legit nitro.

Does MCM have enough time to do the above.

MCM does not do any of this for any service. I don't see why these particular products are an exception.

I doubt MCM will go through with the vetting methods thing for the same reason staff members can't middleman. Putting staff members in a position of trust also puts them in a better position for manipulating people for their assets and knowledge. Other than that, good points are made.

They have been doing this for several services long before I made this suggestion thread, which is why I suggested it in the first place.

 

[sati]

im going to be honest, i cba to read what you wrote 120275 but i agree that nitro selling should be allowed.

I'm in a discord which i bought from where my nitro has never been removed so clearly it is obtained in a somewhat legal way or else it would've got removed like it did when i bought off some random guy.

 

[SSH]

The most recent post in the Announcements forum made by Mick announces that Discord Nitro sales and Discord Nitro Boost sales will now be banned due to "excessive scamming". While there is merit to the ban in favour of reducing the number of users that will get scammed, here is a quick review based on my opinions of the ban:

1. The post says that the sections were removed due to "excessive scamming". A quick review of the first 5 pages of the Scam Reports Archive, and the Scam Reports section (which should not be counted, because unless the user has actually scammed out; it can't be counted as a scam) - more Scam Reports were made by users on reputable users for development services and configuration services than any product, let alone Discord Boosts & Nitro codes. A closer look into the Scam Reports of those users reveals that the majority (excluding one high-profile ban) were new users, who are predisposed to scam out anyway - a higher majority of the Banned Users in the Scam Reports Archive is made up of newer users - and due to the low-cost, easy-transaction nature of products in the Gift Codes & Licenses section, newer users (who are often ban evaders) find it easy to scam out. This is not only the case for Discord Boosts/Nitros, and I will address this later.

2. The argument for Discord Boosts being blackhat/greyhat has little merit now in the wake of the Epic Games offer. There is a perfectly legal way to obtain Nitro codes and Boosts without needing to card, perform identity theft, or any other illegal activity now, and the argument would have had more merit a month earlier or 4 months later (when the offer and codes expire fully). A ban is only hurting the community from purchasing perfectly legitimate services. If staff really does believe there is a need for a review of the methods used to purchase these boosts, then they can do so (I believe they have done this in the past?).

3. The greater argument to be made is the high-risk for buyers in the Gifts & Licenses section along with the Other Products session - which is a perfectly reasonable and valid argument. However, banning boosts sets a dangerous precedent as soon the section will be completely phased out of use because of "excessive scamming". Newer users are far more likely to scam in this section than a more established user is - high-value scams by established users happen in Services or the Currency Conversion sections but that isn't the point here.

The recent offers are an easy way for people to make profit if they know what they're doing and that profit finds its way back into the MCM community and also as revenue for MC-M - several legitimate sellers (myself included) can make legitimate profits from this. Banning sections like this arbitrarily only hurts the community rather than protecting it from scams since they will occur offsite in any case.

Another thing to note is that the decision was (reportedly) unilateral by Mick and staff did not get much of a say (according to a discussion I had with Geek in shoutbox). While this in itself may not be a bad thing, it does bring up the issue that the community is not well-represented by the staff. We were also not informed of this decision the way we were for the Investments and Loans forum.

SOLUTIONS:
Every good suggestion has a solution: here are mine.

1. Unban Discord Nitro and Boost Selling.
2. Increase the requirements to post in the Gift Codes & Licenses and the Other Products forum due to their high-risk nature by newer users. Reputation requirements and message requirements are a good start. Scams will reduce dramatically.
3. Allow staff to perform reviews on members who they suspect of illegitimate activity. A private conversation with Ally revealed a good point that most of the Nitro community treats their business models very carefully (though this is due to the nature that people steal ideas quickly and there is no protection against that here) and I assume Nitro sellers and Boost sellers would be more than happy to reveal their (legitimate) methods to staff under guarantee they won't be resold.



TLDR:
1. banned for excessive scamming but increase of requirements will make sure new users can't scam out easily and leave way for trusted sellers (who are less predisposed to scam)
2. no longer blackhat and greyhat due to recent epic games offers and staff can verify those who seem suspicious
3. community sentiment was not taken into hand

I will defend my opinions.

Even though I have been scammed purchasing discord nitro, the process of removing the highest scammed section every update will reduce the site to literal nothingness.

 

[nvck]

Agreed, there are legal and safe ways to obtain server boosts and Nitro, for example the server boosts obtained from Epic Games Nitro. Regardless what product/service it is, there will always be scammers but we can easily mitigate these risks by setting certain guidelines, such as setting restrictions on who can post a thread. I hope this rule can be relooked and modified because it is not fair to legitimate sellers who have a good reputation, who can no longer able to advertise their services because of certain people obtain Nitro through illegitimate means or scam other users.

 

[Daigan]

I disagree because nitro boosts almost always get revoked, they are easy to scam with, they are breaking discord TOS to be obtained, and if you unban boosts why ban Spotify upgrades, etc? No double standard, either allow all types of upgrading such as Spotify, discord, Adobe, or none at all

 

[120275]

I disagree because nitro boosts almost always get revoked, they are easy to scam with

This is true of most, if not all products in the Gift Codes & Licenses section. I've mentioned this earlier in my defense, and also given solutions for the same.

they are breaking discord TOS to be obtained

There are a few non ToS-breaking methods to avail these if I am right. I have also addressed this point earlier in my defense - MCM shouldn't be picking and choosing what terms to follow just because it suits them.

if you unban boosts why ban Spotify upgrades, etc? No double standard, either allow all types of upgrading such as Spotify, discord, Adobe, or none at all

Okay but I'm in favour of lifting most restrictions on products sold on here, this point is merely an extension of my own argument - I fully support MCM taking a site-wide stance and either distancing themselves from ToS violations entirely or allowing them entirely with few exceptions which deal with activities that are actually illegal. At least then they'd kill off their user base quickly after community outrage and not ban things one by one so that the community doesn't have enough time, energy or people who are directly affected by bans to organize itself in dissent.

They're slowly taking the site in a different direction anyway with or without community approval, and it doesn't seem like we'll be able to do much about it if they ban products and services which they deem to be "immoral" or "ToS-breaking" one by one instead of all at once.

 

[CrescendoFX]

Good points addressed.

As a former nitro seller, I vouch for the suggestion mentioned of reopening the sale of discord nitro and boosts.

Although it may be more difficult and more troublesome for staff to deal with such issues, it should be allowed because whether you purchase any sort of digital good can be easily prone to scamming as well.

If anything, MC-Market staff should allow the sale of Nitro Gifts and Boost subscriptions since they comprise a majority of value and help create more market in the gifts and licensing section. As a result, more people are likelier to be more active on this website and find more options to trade goods as they become more accustomed to the site.

Not only does the addition of these features create more market, it also allows more users to cycle into the MC-Market website and become accustomed to the site as well.

To refute the idea that nitro scammers can often go undetected, keep in mind that the majority of these scammers are newly created accounts where they could easily find new ways of profit if they’re able to fall into the buyer’s hands. They can just as easily be prevented through better VPN and proxy detection, as well as time-limits on newly created accounts to post in sections such as digital goods.

To prevent these scams from occurring, buyers should be more aware of the risks in purchasing digital goods or services by the staff team making more requirements towards newer users and for the staff team to take a larger step towards removing the likelihood of this occurring.

This can be done by adding time requirements to posting in digital goods sections, added tabs which inform users of the risks of purchasing from less reputable users, as well as a detailed look my the staff team into reputable sellers that they deem safe to purchase from.

Not only will the addition of these policies that I have stated will change the digital goods section, but it would also significantly reduce risks of scamming in general.

The addition of Staff-member cooperation into resolving these issues through implementing these policies would make the system of purchasing digital goods in general atleast 50% better than what it was previously; reducing the risks of users falling victim to scams significantly.

Additionally, these policies will help create more market flow in the Gift Codes and Licensing section, as well as an added insurance for buyers. Though the process may be inefficient, the procedure may be similar and could possibly create a better environment for selling in general on MC-Market. Therefore allowing Nitro and Boost Sellers to freely trade without restriction without the heightened risk of scamming, reputable or not.