People cannot chargeback, or request a chargeback on items that you can save on your local disk.

[Cyprus]

Guys as a lot of people pointed out in SB, MCM clearly ignores and doesn't care about sellers' tos, I'm not gonna include Account Sellers here because they are a whole different thing (pulling back accounts etc).

I'm here to mostly talk about the designers, map builders, world painters (By this I mean only want opinions from people that are actively around this community) and other people's jobs that are harder to resell after the customer for any reason doesn't want it anymore.

It's quite annoying how MCM doesn't care about sellers tos, just like you want us to follow MCM's ToS, we'd like you to follow ours. Nothing too crazy.

It takes 1 whole day to get a scam report opened, and around 1-2 weeks to get it closed, is it that hard to check the "scammers" ToS/Thread before doing that? No it is not, and inb4 you say "But SR have so much work to do they can't go around checking everything" well get more SR then, as simple as that, Mick said countless times that they r enough for the current amount of scam reports.

Alright so let's say my ToS says this:

"No chargebacks, no refunds, I'm allowed to cancel your order anytime and will refund you"

If someone opens a SR on me saying I canceled their order then sure I'll give them a refund, if they open a SR asking for a refund after working for multiple hours on their product then NO, IT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE OPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

TLDR: Take normal sellers tos under consideration before opening up a scam report that might ruin their rep/prevent customers going with them.

You might think that I'm a bit biased about this whole thing but I did talk with Mick about it around 2-3 weeks ago.

 

[Cyprus]

Shouldnt talk about? What I said was very relevant with your previous title and suggestion, you just didnt like it.

Didn't change my suggestion, only the title to be more relevant because I couldn't come up with a good one at the time. It's still the same suggestion, I'm sorry if u only read threads' titles and then go comment.

 

[Jdsgames]

Guys as a lot of people pointed out in SB, MCM clearly ignores and doesn't care about sellers' tos, I'm not gonna include Account Sellers here because they are a whole different thing (pulling back accounts etc).

I'm here to mostly talk about the designers, map builders, world painters (By this I mean only want opinions from people that are actively around this community) and other people's jobs that are harder to resell after the customer for any reason doesn't want it anymore.

It's quite annoying how MCM doesn't care about sellers tos, just like you want us to follow MCM's ToS, we'd like you to follow ours. Nothing too crazy.

It takes 1 whole day to get a scam report opened, and around 1-2 weeks to get it closed, is it that hard to check the "scammers" ToS/Thread before doing that? No it is not, and inb4 you say "But SR have so much work to do they can't go around checking everything" well get more SR then, as simple as that, Mick said countless times that they r enough for the current amount of scam reports.

Alright so let's say my ToS says this:

"No chargebacks, no refunds, I'm allowed to cancel your order anytime and will refund you"

If someone opens a SR on me saying I canceled their order then sure I'll give them a refund, if they open a SR asking for a refund after working for multiple hours on their product then NO, IT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE OPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

TLDR: Take normal sellers tos under consideration before opening up a scam report that might ruin their rep/prevent customers going with them.

You might think that I'm a bit biased about this whole thing but I did talk with Mick about it around 2-3 weeks ago.

I think this is a fair game when you buy hosting services after two weeks in you can't say "Eh this host is shit I want my $ back"
You can't go buy a candy bar at the store eat half of it and then go hey "This sucks refund me"
I can't get the Supreme upgrade and say "This is shit I want my money back" I would get banned for that.
How is that fair you can say no refunds as a seller, but your seller's inside the site can't?

This definitely goes for any form of art just because someone didn't exactly like something doesn't mean the work wasn't done.
Although, with anything, the quality of the work should be considered as well.

If MCM doesn't feel it should take any consideration if a user's TOS is valid than its hypocritical for them to expect any user here to respect the TOS/Rules and Guidelines of the site. The idea of "If they don't like it they don't have to buy from me" is completely understandable it is my business my rules. I don't sit and force users to use any services I offer nor do I force them to work with me it is their choice in the first place.

I can clearly understand some arguments where they make it 100% safe for them to scam, however, the TOS of a user should be taken into an account if it satisfies fair play. If not why don't I just start getting services waiting till I get the work and go "Eh this is shit money back please."

The best thing for a seller to do is throw their TOS in a spoiler in their Auto Reply. If they message you they had the information given to them they chose to ignore it.

 

[Mint]

I think this is a fair game when you buy hosting services after two weeks in you can't say "Eh this host is shit I want my $ back"
You can't go buy a candy bar at the store eat half of it and then go hey "This sucks refund me"
I can't get the Supreme upgrade and say "This is shit I want my money back" I would get banned for that.
How is that fair you can say no refunds as a seller, but your seller's inside the site can't?

This definitely goes for any form of art just because someone didn't exactly like something doesn't mean the work wasn't done.
Although, with anything, the quality of the work should be considered as well.

If MCM doesn't feel it should take any consideration if a user's TOS is valid than its hypocritical for them to expect any user here to respect the TOS/Rules and Guidelines of the site. The idea of "If they don't like it they don't have to buy from me" is completely understandable it is my business my rules. I don't sit and force users to use any services I offer nor do I force them to work with me it is their choice in the first place.

I can clearly understand some arguments where they make it 100% safe for them to scam, however, the TOS of a user should be taken into an account if it satisfies fair play. If not why don't I just start getting services waiting till I get the work and go "Eh this is shit money back please."

The best thing for a seller to do is throw their TOS in a spoiler in their Auto Reply. If they message you they had the information given to them they chose to ignore it.

I fully agree with you but the reason this was brought up was because the TOS was faulty. I personally haven't seen any proof of the staff team not taking the TOS into consideration, when the TOS covers the instances where the issues arise.

 

[Jdsgames]

I fully agree with you but the reason this was brought up was because the TOS was faulty. I personally haven't seen any proof of the staff team not taking the TOS into consideration, when the TOS covers the instances where the issues arise.

No refunds means no refunds to me.

 

[Overlord]

MCM should not recognise outrageous terms. Do you think a court of law would accept that?

"No chargebacks, no refunds, I'm allowed to cancel your order anytime and will refund you"

You are infringing on basic legal rights provided by the law to a customer. You can't have that in a terms of service. In fact, it voids the whole terms as unenforceable by default. So, really, any customer that buys from you, legally, does not have to obey any terms just because you threw in a clause that violates their legal rights as customers.

MCM should not recognise such bullshit terms either.

And you do realise that such a clause will make you, almost automatically, lose a PayPal dispute in the event that one arises?

PayPal: "What do you have to say about this dispute?"
You: "It is invalid."
PayPal: "Why?"
You: "My terms say that this user cannot chargeback. He agreed to them by purchasing."
PayPal: "-_-"

Chargeback lost. You're a smart fella, aren't you?

 

[Jdsgames]

MCM should not recognise outrageous terms. Do you think a court of law would accept that?



You are infringing on basic legal rights provided by the law to a customer. You can't have that in a terms of service. In fact, it voids the whole terms as unenforceable by default. So, really, any customer that buys from you, legally, does not have to obey any terms just because you threw in a clause that violates their legal rights as customers.

MCM should not recognise such bullshit terms either.

And you do realise that such a clause will make you, almost automatically, lose a PayPal dispute in the event that one arises?

PayPal: "What do you have to say about this dispute?"
You: "It is invalid."
PayPal: "Why?"
You: "My terms say that this user cannot chargeback. He agreed to them by purchasing."
PayPal: "-_-"

Chargeback lost. You're a smart fella, aren't you?

As far as US rights go I don't see one where they always get a refund option?

What do your basic consumer rights do for you?

1. The right to choose. Within reason, consumers have the right to be assured that a selection of quality products and services are available for them to purchase at competitive prices. It means that a consumer should have the opportunity to select the goods or services that he or she wants to purchase.

2. The right to safety. Consumers have the right to expect protection from hazardous products and services purchased in the marketplace, particularly if used properly for their intended purpose. Consumers have protection from the sale and distribution of dangerous goods and services.

3. The right to be informed. Consumers have the right to receive adequate information about products on which to base buying decisions. Reliable sources exist to inform consumers about products or services.

4. The right to be heard and the right to voice. Consumers have the right to equal and fair consideration in government policy-making situations, as well as prompt treatment in administrative courts or legal communities. In other words, consumers have a right to complain when there are problems or concerns. They have the right to speak up, to be heard, and to expect positive results. Through this right, both business and government are expected to respond to consumers.

5. The right to redress or remedy. Consumers are afforded an opportunity to have a hearing to voice dissatisfaction such that a resolution is reached and the complaint is settled satisfactorily.

6. The right to environmental health. Consumers should be protected from the devastating effects of air, earth, and water pollution that may result from the performance of daily marketplace operations. Consumers have the right to live and work in an environment that does not threaten the well-being of present and future generations.

7. The right to service. Consumers may expect convenience, the right to be treated with respect, an appropriate response to their needs and problems, and good quality design and workmanship in a product. Additionally, consumers may expect a courteous manner while in a store or other establishment even if a purchase is not made. Service means access to essential goods and services to include adequate food, shelter, clothing, health care, education and sanitation¬ basic needs that should be available to all consumers.

8. The right to consumer education. Consumers are extended the right to continuing consumer education that supports the benefits and enjoyment of other specific rights. Consumers have the right to some form of training and mastery of knowledge and skills needed to make informed decisions in the marketplace.

Consumers are privileged to have rights; however, they come with certain responsibilities. For example, it is a consumer's responsibility to use products for their intended purpose and to properly store and dispose of merchandise.

Consumers should be concerned with securing, protecting, and asserting their rights in the marketplace while trading and transacting business to obtain fair value for goods and services. Meanwhile, consumers should not have to worry about the safety of the item they purchase, or contend with false and misleading advertising. Consumers have the responsibility to seek, to evaluate and to use available information on products and services to make sound buying decisions.

In the marketplace, consumers expect businesses to offer a variety of goods and services at competitive prices. However, it is up to the consumer to carefully choose products and services at affordable prices and to express any concerns to government or businesses if these products or services do not meet their expectations.

Consumers want pure air and water, safe and responsible waste disposal, the preservation of natural resources, and effective conservation measures. In other words, consumers want respect for the earth and the overall environment where the beauty of nature can be enjoyed and relished by all.

 

[Mint]

No refunds means no refunds to me.

But he wouldn't have to refund if he complied with edits... So.. xD

 

[Jdsgames]

But he wouldn't have to refund if he complied with edits... So.. xD

He had 2 edits and an entire new design.

 

[Mint]

He had 2 edits and an entire new design.

It wouldn't've been a problem to this extent if his TOS included things like these. If he provided a service that wasn't according to the description he gave (which seems to be the problem too) , he should also be able to be refunded. It's just illogical. If I ask for a 50% downpayment of a logo that's 100 usd, and then draw a shitty image that's just a stick figure, should he be refunded, even if I had a similar TOS to him? Should I open a scam report because he might not pay me the other half?

 

[Cyprus]

It wouldn't've been a problem to this extent if his TOS included things like these. If he provided a service that wasn't according to the description he gave (which seems to be the problem too) , he should also be able to be refunded. It's just illogical. If I ask for a 50% downpayment of a logo that's 100 usd, and then draw a shitty image that's just a stick figure, should he be refunded, even if I had a similar TOS to him? Should I open a scam report because he might not pay me the other half?

I did the edits what r u talking about, and it wasn't a stick figure so don't compare something that took 2+ hours to do with something that takes 10 seconds to do.

 

[Overlord]

Jdsgames US definitely has customer rights.

All EU member states have this law: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm

Any good sold online, physical or virtual, must be able to be refunded and returned within 14 days for any reason. After that, the good must last of expected quality for a reasonable and proportionate amount of time. So, really, depending on your interpretation of the EU directives, virtual goods like software/builds must be supported for quite a long time, as well as refunded. In countries like the UK, this is 30 days by law. Any company selling to EU customers must adhere to these rules.

I am not aware of US statutory rights for customers. I would guess they're more relaxed and more limited. But if a good is not as described, I am almost positive you are eligible for refund.

Anyone using PayPal to process payments also adheres to their terms. Buying/selling goods via the gateway will adhere to their terms that buyers have buyer protection, and sellers have seller protection. You cannot have a term that says refunds cannot be given, this will mean that you cannot process the payment via the PayPal gateway and by that logic alone PayPal will refund the payment and refuse to deal with the merchant. I've seen accounts closed on PayPal for such bullshit terms.

However you want to spin it, even if US law gives merchants a right to do whatever they want, that term will not work unless you refuse to sell to a resident or citizen of any EU country, or in any EU country, and don't use a gateway like PayPal that has its own disputes system.

 

[Cyprus]

Jdsgames US definitely has customer rights.

All EU member states have this law: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm

Any good sold online, physical or virtual, must be able to be refunded and returned within 14 days for any reason. After that, the good must last of expected quality for a reasonable and proportionate amount of time. So, really, depending on your interpretation of the EU directives, virtual goods like software/builds must be supported for quite a long time, as well as refunded. In countries like the UK, this is 30 days by law. Any company selling to EU customers must adhere to these rules.

I am not aware of US statutory rights for customers. I would guess they're more relaxed and more limited. But if a good is not as described, I am almost positive you are eligible for refund.

Anyone using PayPal to process payments also adheres to their terms. Buying/selling goods via the gateway will adhere to their terms that buyers have buyer protection, and sellers have seller protection. You cannot have a term that says refunds cannot be given, this will mean that you cannot process the payment via the PayPal gateway and by that logic alone PayPal will refund the payment and refuse to deal with the merchant. I've seen accounts closed on PayPal for such bullshit terms.

However you want to spin it, even if US law gives merchants a right to do whatever they want, that term will not work unless you refuse to sell to a resident or citizen of any EU country, or in any EU country, and don't use a gateway like PayPal that has its own disputes system.

This is a minecraft forum..
Just gonna say that lol

 

[Mint]

I did the edits what r u talking about, and it wasn't a stick figure so don't compare something that took 2+ hours to do with something that takes 10 seconds to do.

Is the client pleased?
I could draw a stick figure over 2h, I'm just using something like 'Stick figure' to express that anyone can do and wouldn't be what the client ordered.

 

[Cyprus]

Is the client pleased?
I could draw a stick figure over 2h, I'm just using something like 'Stick figure' to express that anyone can do and wouldn't be what the client ordered.

You said yourself that u'd charge based on hour spent though lol, I was in a call with him, not my fault that he has no idea what he wants.

 

[Overlord]

This is a minecraft forum..
Just gonna say that lol

What exactly is your point? That because this is a Minecraft forum that it does not have to adhere to the law? Do you think you get special exemptions in PayPal disputes, or in court?

 

[Mint]

You said yourself that u'd charge based on hour spent though lol, I was in a call with him, not my fault that he has no idea what he wants.

I'm not talking about what I myself think. I'm asking for her opinion. She said it's no refunds exclusively, so I want to hear how she'd combat that. Is he pleased with the product? If not, I personally would refund him and tell him to look elsewhere.

 

[Cyprus]

What exactly is your point? That because this is a Minecraft forum that it does not have to adhere to the law? Do you think you get special exemptions in PayPal disputes, or in court?

Yes someone is totally going to make a case against me in court, or anyone else on MCM.
Not everywhere is Murica m8.[DOUBLEPOST=1496166154][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'm not talking about what I myself think. I'm asking for her opinion. She said it's no refunds exclusively, so I want to hear how she'd combat that. Is he pleased with the product? If not, I personally would refund him and tell him to look elsewhere.

So if I hire you to work for me, you work on it for around 3 hours and do 2 edits for it (that i asked) and while screensharing those edits to make sure they r satisfied, you'd still return all my money? Even though you sent me all the files already?

 

[Overlord]

Yes someone is totally going to make a case against me in court, or anyone else on MCM.
Not everywhere is Murica m8.

No, but they might chargeback. PayPal will look at their own terms and the law long before they look at your shit terms of service. Don't expect to win any chargebacks with that shit in your terms.

Also, it's essentially free to go to a small claims court. If I was out more than $300 I'd probably go to a small claims court. I've done it a couple of times in the past, not to do with Minecraft though.

 

[Cyprus]

No, but they might chargeback. PayPal will look at their own terms and the law long before they look at your shit terms of service. Don't expect to win any chargebacks with that shit in your terms.

Also, it's essentially free to go to a small claims court. If I was out more than $300 I'd probably go to a small claims court. I've done it a couple of times in the past, not to do with Minecraft though.

Yea cuz who'd make a case for something worth less than 50$ and it's not against a company?

 

[Overlord]

Yea cuz who'd make a case for something worth less than 50$ and it's not against a company?

But they can always make a PayPal case. I see you people making cases for $2. Do you think PayPal is going to let you win with the term "this case is invalid because my terms say this bloke can't open a chargeback"?