[PSA] A message from the web dev/designer community.

[Croc]

Greetings MC-Market!

After a discussion amongst the reputable web developer/designer community on MCM, we have voted to collectively make a brief PSA regarding some happenings on the site lately.

As of late, some members of the MCM community have been being dismissive of the valuable skills that many of the web developers here possess. Developers like 1amDev, Elcro, and many others who work hard to meet the client’s needs in the form of a website are being constantly underappreciated and their work undervalued.

For example, it is often hurtful to see new members join and immediately set up a shop in either an effortless attempt to make a quick buck or scam a few unfortunate souls. Often times, these new so-called developers are not even selling hand-crafted sites, but simple pre-made templates that they didn’t even create. Another big problem is leaks and unlawful use. Some developers here have had their resources re-uploaded and sold elsewhere without prior consent.

We are NOT trying to discourage new developers from learning to code and definitely not dissuading anyone from making money from their craft. In fact, we are doing the opposite. Any one of us developers is always happy to answer questions about web development and offer general guidance and tricks of the trade as long as we are not too busy.

To this effect, we have decided to implement a client blacklist in order to keep our fellow developers safe. This world obviously isn’t perfect, so why try to force bad people to do good things? The way this will work is any reputable developer, who has had a deal gone amiss, can input a particular member’s name into a private blacklist known only to the reputable developers here. Once a member gets on the blacklist, it will be extremely hard to get off. You will need to appeal to the web developer community of MCM.

To sum up, we would like to offer some advice to any prospective web devs/designers:

• BE YOURSELF!
  • First, when you are new and nobody here knows you, introduce yourself to the community and establish trust and let your true personality shine. We were all new at one time and understand it is tough starting out. However, stick to it and you will start making good friends here and maybe some enemies (but that’s okay too).
• NEVER STOP LEARNING!
  • Learn as much as you can about how a website works, how hosting works, how servers work, and how the underlying code works. For example, even if you aren’t specializing in system administration, it is helpful to know some basic terminal commands.

Thank you for reading and listening!

All the developers/designers who agree with this PSA are listed below:

Alex C. of CrocBuzz Studios Croc
Lev A. of Elcro Development & Designs Elcro
Ozair P. of Explodified Design & Development Wvisoecj
Charlie J. of Charlie James Development Charlie
Nicholas M. of Nik Development NickTheDev
Candy. of Candy Development Candy
Alix P of FinnehDesign FinnehPleh
Michael C. of 1am Development 1amDev
TheLightDev. TheLightDev
Rexs123 of Rexsdev.com rexs123

 

[Wvisoecj]

Hopefully this will stop the piracy of code. I hope you all support our decision and why we are doing this! We want to continue offering our services but the piracy is turning us off from this forum.

Edit:

Additionally, we would like to talk about the users who would like any of our standard high quality service but are not willing to pay minimum fees. There is an increasing number of users who ask for this.

Some of you may be used to using drag and drop builders and have successfully built an entire website within an hour or two. All of the approved developers spend hours and hours developing these sites for you, we earn far less than minimum wage. We do this because we love development, and we would like to give back to the community. If you continue to expect our quality content, be willing to pay the price for it.

 

[lAkjtzAZ0]

s**t I'm not even a well-known web designer, but I've had my code stolen multiple times before

 

[Dobbs]

Im sorry, Is this meant for developers or clients?

 

[Croc]

Im sorry, Is this meant for developers or clients?

Developers to blacklist troublesome clients.

 

[Wvisoecj]

Im sorry, Is this meant for developers or clients?

It's a warning to all clients that we will start blacklisting them from our premium services if they steal content or go against our terms.

 

[lAkjtzAZ0]

It's a warning to all clients that we will start blacklisting them from our premium services if they steal content or go against our terms.

consider making something like this? http://www.mc-market.org/threads/133090/

 

[Justis]

The reputation system is a thing.
If you have a problem with a member, give them some negative reputation and state what they have done to deserve it.

I'm not feeling to great about some "force" going around blacklisting members, shaming them, and ensuring it will be, as you put it "very hard" for them to "unmark" themselves with your... Disapproval.

1) I don't see this going anywhere. I really don't. Nor do I want it to. Use the rep system.
2) If it does go somewhere, it's going to cause a lot of drama. Good luck avoiding rule 1.4

1.4 Do not defame or otherwise trash another member, person, or thread.
Which is basically all this is.

If you are going to do anything like this, I would recomend a whitelist, not a blacklist.
Make yourself a list of developers you all trust, and refer people to it when they're looking for trusted devs.
It's positive, it's useful; and it encourages new members to work hard to get yours and other members referral.

If you see someone you want to devouch, devouch them in the appropriate manner, the reputation system.
And then don't add them to your whitelist/referrals or whatever you want to call it.

If you don't like the limited power your one reputation gives, then that's too bad. You're not supposed to be able to shut down someone's entire business with your one bad opinion of them. Suck it up.
If they've actually gone and done something so bad it violates the rules, the content will be removed, and they'll be warned for it. If the warnings don't ban them, they have the chance to make things right and change for the better.
This is the staff's job, and it is handled by the staff. Not witch hunters.

Anyways, this is just my opinion.
Hopefully you found something useful in it.
Remember... Beware rule 1.4

 

[HazTiller]

Surprised something like this wasn't in place before, good luck!

 

[lAkjtzAZ0]

I'm not feeling to great about some "force" going around blacklisting members

so why not take action against http://www.mc-market.org/threads/133090/ ? It doesn't break rule 1.4 in any way, and neither will this. It's not "defaming" or "trashing" another member by saying that they are irresponsible, don't appreciate what they've been given/offered by developers, expect too much, harass, or otherwise disregard the true skill of developers who are trying to help these users because they throw lowball offers at devs.

 

[Croc]

The reputation system is a thing.
If you have a problem with a member, give them some negative reputation and state what they have done to deserve it.

I'm not feeling to great about some "force" going around blacklisting members, shaming them, and ensuring it will be, as you put it "very hard" for them to "unmark" themselves with your... Disapproval.

1) I don't see this going anywhere. I really don't. Nor do I want it to. Use the rep system.
2) If it does go somewhere, it's going to cause a lot of drama. Good luck avoiding rule 1.4

1.4 Do not defame or otherwise trash another member, person, or thread.
Which is basically all this is.

If you are going to do anything like this, I would recomend a whitelist, not a blacklist.
Make yourself a list of developers you all trust, and refer people to it when they're looking for trusted devs.
It's positive, it's useful; and it encourages new members to work hard to get yours and other members referral.

If you see someone you want to devouch, devouch them in the appropriate manner, the reputation system.
And then don't add them to your whitelist/referrals or whatever you want to call it.

If you don't like the limited power your one reputation gives, then that's too bad. You're not supposed to be able to shut down someone's entire business with your one bad opinion of them. Suck it up.
If they've actually gone and done something so bad it violates the rules, the content will be removed, and they'll be warned for it. If the warnings don't ban them, they have the chance to make things right and change for the better.
This is the staff's job, and it is handled by the staff. Not witch hunters.

Anyways, this is just my opinion.
Hopefully you found something useful in it.
Remember... Beware rule 1.4

This was a collective decision discussed privately and did you not read the part that the blacklist would remain private. Only the known, reputable developers will have access to view and modify it. No shaming is involved. The client just won't be served by any of us if they are listed on the blacklist for being troublesome.

 

[lAkjtzAZ0]

This was a collective decision discussed privately and did you not read the part that the blacklist would remain private. Only the known, reputable developers will have access to view and modify it. No shaming is involved. The client just won't be served by any of us if they are listed on the blacklist for being troublesome.

It doesn't even need to remain private to not defame/break any rules, but it doesn't hurt much to make it private.

 

[Justis]

This was a collective decision discussed privately and did you not read the part that the blacklist would remain private. Only the known, reputable developers will have access to view and modify it. No shaming is involved. The client just won't be served by any of us if they are listed on the blacklist for being troublesome.

What good would a list of bad devs be to a list of good devs?
It's not like any of them would need the services.
Are you saying this is all because you don't want to develop for the bad devs? ^.-

 

[Croc]

What good would a list of bad devs be to a list of good devs?
It's not like any of them would need the services.
Are you saying this is all because you don't want to develop for the bad devs? ^.-

No no no no no no, the blacklist would be for troublesome CLIENTS!!! In other words, a DNDW (do not deal with) list.

 

[Justis]

No no no no no no, the blacklist would be for troublesome CLIENTS!!! In other words, a DNDW (do not deal with) list.

Then what on earth was all this about?

"For example, it is often hurtful to see new members join and immediately set up a shop in either an effortless attempt to make a quick buck or scam a few unfortunate souls. Often times, these new so-called developers are not even selling hand-crafted sites, but simple pre-made templates that they didn’t even create. Another big problem is leaks and unlawful use. Some developers here have had their resources re-uploaded and sold elsewhere without prior consent.

We are NOT trying to discourage new developers from learning to code and definitely not dissuading anyone from making money from their craft. In fact, we are doing the opposite. Any one of us developers is always happy to answer questions about web development and offer general guidance and tricks of the trade as long as we are not too busy."

 

[lAkjtzAZ0]

Then what on earth was all this about?

"For example, it is often hurtful to see new members join and immediately set up a shop in either an effortless attempt to make a quick buck or scam a few unfortunate souls. Often times, these new so-called developers are not even selling hand-crafted sites, but simple pre-made templates that they didn’t even create. Another big problem is leaks and unlawful use. Some developers here have had their resources re-uploaded and sold elsewhere without prior consent.

We are NOT trying to discourage new developers from learning to code and definitely not dissuading anyone from making money from their craft. In fact, we are doing the opposite. Any one of us developers is always happy to answer questions about web development and offer general guidance and tricks of the trade as long as we are not too busy."

This thread was about two things. 1 ) the fake "new developers", which you just quoted, and 2 ) shitty clients who deserve to be blacklisted for lowballing, not appreciating the work devs do, giving devs a hard time, etc.., more reasons can be found in above posts

 

[Justis]

This thread was about two things. 1 ) the fake "new developers", which you just quoted, and 2 ) shitty clients who deserve to be blacklisted for lowballing, not appreciating the work devs do, giving devs a hard time, etc.., more reasons can be found in above posts

The "To this effect, we have decided to implement a blacklist" part led me to believe that it was because of everything that was just stated (the fake new developers) that the blacklist is being made; implying they would also be on it.
Which would only make sense if you distributed it to the forums, because what use would devs have for a list of bad devs other than to warn others.
So I assumed the whole "known only to the reputable developers here" part was a poor way of saying "Only we devs will be able to modify it".
Where it was actually the whole chunk above and then suddenly transition into a blacklist that had me mislead.

If it's private, there's no problem.
However, you're wrong about posting it publicly poop; telling everyone "Don't deal with this user/these users" is trashing, no matter how many times you say "It's just my opinion" or "Your own risk".
If you want to spread bad reputation for someone, do it in the reputation tab.
If someone has scammed, open a scam report.

Again, a list of "troublesome clients" is considered defaming/trashing. At least in my book. Though it seems like common sense; so I'm sure other members of staff who would be removing said content would agree.
Use the reputation system/scam reports.
Don't post this publicly.

That said, I suppose I can't exactly agree with this..
Not that I think you're wrong for doing what you think necessary to keep yourselves safe.
I appreciate the offer, but I'll stick with looking at my clients' reputation, and personality, and judging for myself who I'd like to give a shot and deal with. ^-^

 

[lAkjtzAZ0]

The "To this effect, we have decided to implement a blacklist" part led me to believe that it was because of everything that was just stated (the fake new developers) that the blacklist is being made; implying they would also be on it.
Which would only make sense if you distributed it to the forums, because what use would devs have for a list of bad devs other than to warn others.
So I assumed the whole "known only to the reputable developers here" part was a poor way of saying "Only we devs will be able to modify it".
Where it was actually the whole chunk above and then suddenly transition into a blacklist that had me mislead.

If it's private, there's no problem.
However, you're wrong about posting it publicly poop; telling everyone "Don't deal with this user/these users" is trashing, no matter how many times you say "It's just my opinion" or "Your own risk".
If you want to spread bad reputation for someone, do it in the reputation tab.
If someone has scammed, open a scam report.

Again, a list of "troublesome clients" is considered defaming/trashing. At least in my book. Though it seems like common sense; so I'm sure other members of staff who would be removing said content would agree.
Use the reputation system/scam reports.
Don't post this publicly.

That said, I suppose I can't exactly agree with this..
Not that I think you're wrong for doing what you think necessary to keep yourselves safe.
I appreciate the offer, but I'll stick with looking at my clients' reputation, and personality, and judging for myself who I'd like to give a shot and deal with. ^-^

so can you answer my question of: Why hasn't anything been done about this public, DNDW, thread? http://www.mc-market.org/threads/133090/

Also, how is saying "{user} is rude/disrespectful, ungrateful to what was given, etc.." trashing someone? You're telling me you wouldn't warn people of a hazardous "client" for any type of business if you knew it would hurt the seller/business?