I'm saying I would use the reputation system while on MCMarket, like you're supposed to when you're on MCMarket.
And I've reported that thread.
It's fairly new, it'll likely be dealt with soon enough.
[PSA] A message from the web dev/designer community.
- Thread starter Croc
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And I've reported that thread.
It's fairly new, it'll likely be dealt with soon enough.
The list will mostly contain users who steal other dev's content without expressive permission. 1amDev and Elcro have contacted M6Gaming about their stolen content, but the staff refuse to acknowledge this issue. This is our only way of retaliation against piracy.
Additionally, the reputation is not prevalent enough for regular use. It's hidden away in the users menu and unused.
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Which is why I'm here saying, use it. Make it mean something.
I very much doubt any staff member is "refusing to acknowledge" one of our users.
However, as I said, feel free to use this for yourselves. As long as it's kept private, I personally don't care what it contains or why.
I'm not interested in joining your private dev thing. Mmk? That's all I'm saying. That and don't post it on here. Use our methods of reporting.
No need to keep quoting me.
.
If you do not wish to participate in using the blacklist you don't have to. We encourage experienced developers to participate in it's usage to combat piracy. We do have proof of the refusal to acknowledge the issue though.
https://chatlo.gs/fG1b5I7h
https://chatlo.gs/YtK7LMm5
If nobody was scammed, what can M6 do?
Ban him for copying your site...
There was never any deal between the dev and the person copying, so there's no basis for a scam to have occurred. Or for M6 to resolve it.
Your best bet was to work it out between the two of you, yourselves.
I believe this was M6's thinking, though only he can tell you for certain.
However, you are still able to report the stollen content for misleading members, misrepresenting themselves, trolling, etc.
And the content will be removed by a moderator, and they will be warned, if there is sufficient evidence.
If they try and sell it, you got them further, under the "Do not sell content you do not have rights to redistribute" rule, which is enough points to get anyone temp banned instantly. Very hurtful to their profile.
I believe you were just handling it wrong.
Again, no problem with what you're doing as long as it's not posted here.
Great way of protecting yourselves, truly, you don't need to argue that with me.
Though I do wish you would ALSO use the reputation system.
Who knows, maybe it will be become more visible in the future.
Kind of seems as if you're potentially turning away a whole bunch of clients.
If one of the "clients" has a hassle with a developer, even if it's not site related, what if he's falsely added and then turned down multiple times over?
What if someone's just added for no reason?
When someone's turned down, will they know, 'it's cause your on the blacklist.' You can make some random person who didn't even know he did anything wrong pissed off because one of these developers woke up on the wrong side of the bed and added him to the list.
Seems a little unorganized to me.
If one of the "clients" has a hassle with a developer, even if it's not site related, what if he's falsely added and then turned down multiple times over?
What if someone's just added for no reason?
When someone's turned down, will they know, 'it's cause your on the blacklist.' You can make some random person who didn't even know he did anything wrong pissed off because one of these developers woke up on the wrong side of the bed and added him to the list.
Seems a little unorganized to me.
I'm putting this in a spoiler because it's not that important- it's not my main point, but I feel as if it needs to be said. So don't yell at me too much about this (I know someone will), because I put it here for a reason.
Also, let me clear something up. This is not defending new web developers or web developers that scam. This is specifically defending web developers who are experienced, and new to this community. (However, I do sympathize with all new web developers in general.)
PART 1
This part of the paragraph feels out of place. I get the scamming part, but that's not what I'm talking about, so I took it out. Let me explain the rest, and what this may feel like to someone like me- an experienced web developer who's new to MC-Market.
PART 1 TL;DR: You don't sound as nice (would sincere be a better word?) as you intend to.
PART 2
Let's talk about opinions real quick. Going back to the quote, "As of late, some members of the MCM community have been being dismissive of the valuable skills that many of the web developers here possess. Developers like 1amDev, Elcro, and many others who work hard to meet the client’s needs in the form of a website are being constantly underappreciated and their work undervalued." While it's sweet and all for you all to be banding together to defend each other, don't you think that making a blacklist "public" (because this has supposedly been going on for 4 months now) is a little far just for an opinion? I'm not saying I feel otherwise- I know how it feels to be undervalued, trust me- but I can at least take criticism. These are all OPINIONS. It's your opinion if they're undervalued, it's these anonymous haters' opinions of they value them next to nothing, and it's my opinion that you should take all of these opinions with a grain of salt.
I feel as if I shouldn't trust anyone here now. If I tell my buddy, "Hey, I know Dev A has been around for a while, but I don't think he's that great," will that cause my reputation to go down 10 points and will I be added to the blacklist? You make the community sound like a bunch of gossip girls at the hair salon, dissing each other every other weekend.
Also, MCM changes people- design wise, that is. When I first came in, I had a few web designs in my head, but when I looked at the majority of web developers (not naming any names because naming names is mutual thought crime), I felt as if it was the same of one of these two things, reskinned over and over again:
So when I saw all of this, I had to adjust. I haven't officially set up shop here yet, and I was planning on it. I was getting my portfolio back together and everything. I've been web developing for going a decade now- and had stopped for around a year to get my mum back on her feet. (She got cancer. No, this is not the cancer card, but if I'm getting to quit my job for a year I might as well have a good reason.) But when that was finished, this huge forum gave me the inspiration to get back up and at it. I've got to work through college somehow.
But then this thread came along. It was a silent diss to people like me, or the others here who are just setting up shop here for the first time, or setting up shop as a developer for the first time. It was a way to silently tell clients, "Hey, we've been around longer. Trust us more because we have morality because we all band together and don't affiliate with scammers!" You don't even hide it. I already quoted this, but I'll this small part of it again- it's that significant. "It is often hurtful to see new members join and immediately set up a shop in either an effortless attempt to make a quick buck." The majority of web developers here are in it for the money. In fact- you, yes, you, (Croc because he's OP, but all of the web developers on that list) web develop HERE. On MC-Market. People here undervalue EVERYTHING. Someone wanted me to make (essentially) a custom forum software from scratch for $50. If that's not undervaluing, I don't know what is. Since people pay so low, you can ONLY make a quick buck, which means EVERY WEB DEVELOPER HERE THAT CHARGES MONEY IS IN IT FOR A QUICK BUCK. Over-analysis? Maybe. Does it make sense though? Yes.
PART 2 TL;DR: This was essentially made because of opinions. Take them with a grain of salt man. Also, everyone's in it for a quick buck here, so don't just rat on new developers here.
In conclusion: wow, I wrote too much about this.
However, I felt as if it needs to be said. While the intentions may be nice, it implies an unwarranted hatred towards ALL new developers to this forum.
Despite all of this however, I'll still be setting shop here and testing the waters. Any advice PMed to me from you web developers would be appreciated. I'm excited to further meet with you guys hopefully in the future, once I get up to your 'God' status on here. Hopefully this whole rant won't affect anything.
Sincerely,
Tracer.
Also, let me clear something up. This is not defending new web developers or web developers that scam. This is specifically defending web developers who are experienced, and new to this community. (However, I do sympathize with all new web developers in general.)
PART 1
This part of the paragraph feels out of place. I get the scamming part, but that's not what I'm talking about, so I took it out. Let me explain the rest, and what this may feel like to someone like me- an experienced web developer who's new to MC-Market.
- Hey look! I'm a web developer who's worked for [x] amount of years and I need to make $[x]/mo to pay rent! (or buy something cool if you're younger.)
- Oh, cool! A huge forum that allows you to offer your web services and a thriving community! Let's set up shop, maybe that'll help!
- What's this? A 'client blacklist?' Smart idea! We wouldn't want people scamming twice, now would we?
- Oh wow! A huge (it doesn't say it out loud, but come on, it's implied) trusted developer list! Wow! There goes half of my chance of getting a single client!
- Hey, look at that! The even call us new developers on here out! "It is often hurtful to see new members join and immediately set up a shop in either an effortless attempt to make a quick buck." Just going straight to the point, yeah?
- Dev A has been on MCM for 2 years.
- Dev A sees tons of new competition!
- Dev A hides 'trusted developer' list in a controversial (yes, it is) thread so it gets views and includes self in it.
- Dev A gets the same, if not better amounts of clients.
PART 1 TL;DR: You don't sound as nice (would sincere be a better word?) as you intend to.
PART 2
Let's talk about opinions real quick. Going back to the quote, "As of late, some members of the MCM community have been being dismissive of the valuable skills that many of the web developers here possess. Developers like 1amDev, Elcro, and many others who work hard to meet the client’s needs in the form of a website are being constantly underappreciated and their work undervalued." While it's sweet and all for you all to be banding together to defend each other, don't you think that making a blacklist "public" (because this has supposedly been going on for 4 months now) is a little far just for an opinion? I'm not saying I feel otherwise- I know how it feels to be undervalued, trust me- but I can at least take criticism. These are all OPINIONS. It's your opinion if they're undervalued, it's these anonymous haters' opinions of they value them next to nothing, and it's my opinion that you should take all of these opinions with a grain of salt.
I feel as if I shouldn't trust anyone here now. If I tell my buddy, "Hey, I know Dev A has been around for a while, but I don't think he's that great," will that cause my reputation to go down 10 points and will I be added to the blacklist? You make the community sound like a bunch of gossip girls at the hair salon, dissing each other every other weekend.
Also, MCM changes people- design wise, that is. When I first came in, I had a few web designs in my head, but when I looked at the majority of web developers (not naming any names because naming names is mutual thought crime), I felt as if it was the same of one of these two things, reskinned over and over again:
- A "portal." (I say "portal" because it's a landing page- don't sugarcoat it and get over it.)
- A site with the big header and three fucking columns. (You know what I'm talking about? You know, the one with the barely modified Bootstrap navbar, the big Minecraft-background header with their logo, and the three columns of 'features' right under it, all slapped together.)
So when I saw all of this, I had to adjust. I haven't officially set up shop here yet, and I was planning on it. I was getting my portfolio back together and everything. I've been web developing for going a decade now- and had stopped for around a year to get my mum back on her feet. (She got cancer. No, this is not the cancer card, but if I'm getting to quit my job for a year I might as well have a good reason.) But when that was finished, this huge forum gave me the inspiration to get back up and at it. I've got to work through college somehow.
But then this thread came along. It was a silent diss to people like me, or the others here who are just setting up shop here for the first time, or setting up shop as a developer for the first time. It was a way to silently tell clients, "Hey, we've been around longer. Trust us more because we have morality because we all band together and don't affiliate with scammers!" You don't even hide it. I already quoted this, but I'll this small part of it again- it's that significant. "It is often hurtful to see new members join and immediately set up a shop in either an effortless attempt to make a quick buck." The majority of web developers here are in it for the money. In fact- you, yes, you, (Croc because he's OP, but all of the web developers on that list) web develop HERE. On MC-Market. People here undervalue EVERYTHING. Someone wanted me to make (essentially) a custom forum software from scratch for $50. If that's not undervaluing, I don't know what is. Since people pay so low, you can ONLY make a quick buck, which means EVERY WEB DEVELOPER HERE THAT CHARGES MONEY IS IN IT FOR A QUICK BUCK. Over-analysis? Maybe. Does it make sense though? Yes.
PART 2 TL;DR: This was essentially made because of opinions. Take them with a grain of salt man. Also, everyone's in it for a quick buck here, so don't just rat on new developers here.
In conclusion: wow, I wrote too much about this.
However, I felt as if it needs to be said. While the intentions may be nice, it implies an unwarranted hatred towards ALL new developers to this forum.
Despite all of this however, I'll still be setting shop here and testing the waters. Any advice PMed to me from you web developers would be appreciated. I'm excited to further meet with you guys hopefully in the future, once I get up to your 'God' status on here. Hopefully this whole rant won't affect anything.
Sincerely,
Tracer.
I think the intentions were honest, and I think my perspective on this forum can help positively contribute to it.
Look, Justis, you're not going to persuade us to take this down or anything of the sort. Your argument is that its trashing users, however we're just protecting each other in a efficient way. For example. User 1 comes to a Developer and wants a website before payment, and will not negotiate or anything of the sort. User 1 then goes to another developer and wastes their time. This can be prevented by the blacklist.
You quoted a post in which I was explaining why M6 was unable to accept a scam report for a situation in which a scam didn't occur between two users.
Then at the bottom of the post, I explained that I didn't have a problem with what you were doing.
You're literally arguing against nothing.
Why are you telling me I'm trying to persuade you to "take this down" whatever that means.
I've already acknowledged that it's an efficient way to protect yourself; and stated I don't have a problem with it, as long as the list isn't publicly posted on MCM.
Can you please read everything I've said instead of mindlessly quoting me and dragging me back into this thread?
Cba to go back a page and quote your other post.[DOUBLEPOST=1473528749][/DOUBLEPOST]
Damn I can see you put a lot of effort into this, however there is one simple answer. Its not as easy as if you think to get on the blacklist, firstly a developer submits a user to be put onto the blacklist, the user is then reviewed by two highly reputable developers who have a pretty good idea of who should and should not be on the blacklist.
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So, I have read every single post on this thread, and I have gotten some mixed thoughts. Here is my main thought.
You should've thought about the effects of this thread, before posting it. Your intention with the post to inform the people of the already used blacklist, is completely okay - and I think it is a very good idea. Especially since the reputation system is given little attention to.
But things like:
This quote is illustrating a very bad thing we have here on MCM. A 'stereotype' of newcomers if I can say so. I am not denying that I have done this myself, because I have done this. And this is a big problem on MCM. To new people it shows that they're not welcome, and that they won't be taking seriously. Just because they're new. This wouldn't be a big problem if it was 1 guy with his problem. But when it is signed by arguably the most influencial web developers on MCM, it is a huge problem. It will only further the turning away of newcomers, and further your 'monopoly' on this site.
Which takes me to my second point: You should've kept this private. If this was kept private, you would have gotten what you want, without sending the message of this thread. And without making a 'monopoly' on this site. If a new or (casual) guy came to look at this post. And saw this thread on some big users signatures. It would say that these guy are the 'trusted' ones. These are the go-to guys, if I ever want anything, these are the ones. And now everyone wants things from you, and you have a monopoly.
In an extreme case this could get so bad that you control virtually all the production in this field. And since you do that, you can choose the pricing - and even inflate it if you want. You of course won't do it, as it is morally wrong. (I hope.)
My advice is to either take down this post, and forget about it. (Though don't deny the existance of it). Or rewrite it, as this is a much more sensitive post, than you think.
EDIT: I feel that I need to put this here. This is not an attack on this thread or idea, I completely get the point and agree to it. This whole post is just to illustrate the effect this can have.
But just because it can happen doesn't mean it will. The example of monopolies is, as I said before, very extreme and is almost guaranteed to not happen.
And to anyone saying that this is a personal attack to any of the developers mentioned above, I have this to say: It is not.
I look up to many of these developers and I like much of their work. Many of them have helped me out, and they, at least the ones I have talked to, are great guys.
This seems to be a common mis-understanding in general: just because I disagree with or bash a thing of theirs, does not mean I am bashing them. I can disagree with this without basing them.
Best Regards,
Omar H.
You should've thought about the effects of this thread, before posting it. Your intention with the post to inform the people of the already used blacklist, is completely okay - and I think it is a very good idea. Especially since the reputation system is given little attention to.
But things like:
Are bad. The wording on this should be changed. This can very much be misinterpreted as new developers are bad, and all they do is use templates. I do get that what you ment is that some new members join and set up shop, without actually knowing the skill they're doing. And this is a real problem, but there is also a huge amout of new members, who join with legitmate skills and knowledge.
This quote is illustrating a very bad thing we have here on MCM. A 'stereotype' of newcomers if I can say so. I am not denying that I have done this myself, because I have done this. And this is a big problem on MCM. To new people it shows that they're not welcome, and that they won't be taking seriously. Just because they're new. This wouldn't be a big problem if it was 1 guy with his problem. But when it is signed by arguably the most influencial web developers on MCM, it is a huge problem. It will only further the turning away of newcomers, and further your 'monopoly' on this site.
Which takes me to my second point: You should've kept this private. If this was kept private, you would have gotten what you want, without sending the message of this thread. And without making a 'monopoly' on this site. If a new or (casual) guy came to look at this post. And saw this thread on some big users signatures. It would say that these guy are the 'trusted' ones. These are the go-to guys, if I ever want anything, these are the ones. And now everyone wants things from you, and you have a monopoly.
In an extreme case this could get so bad that you control virtually all the production in this field. And since you do that, you can choose the pricing - and even inflate it if you want. You of course won't do it, as it is morally wrong. (I hope.)
My advice is to either take down this post, and forget about it. (Though don't deny the existance of it). Or rewrite it, as this is a much more sensitive post, than you think.
EDIT: I feel that I need to put this here. This is not an attack on this thread or idea, I completely get the point and agree to it. This whole post is just to illustrate the effect this can have.
But just because it can happen doesn't mean it will. The example of monopolies is, as I said before, very extreme and is almost guaranteed to not happen.
And to anyone saying that this is a personal attack to any of the developers mentioned above, I have this to say: It is not.
I look up to many of these developers and I like much of their work. Many of them have helped me out, and they, at least the ones I have talked to, are great guys.
This seems to be a common mis-understanding in general: just because I disagree with or bash a thing of theirs, does not mean I am bashing them. I can disagree with this without basing them.
Best Regards,
Omar H.
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To be completely honest, I think this is a great idea. Some things should be changed just because the wording or whatnot if a little weird or easily misinterpreted although overall this is nice. Hopefully this list will keep users from stealing code, scamming, etc. Although since the list is private and there isn't really a way to inform someone whether they've made the list or not, it may not be as effective as intended.
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